
##4022155 @!TERRY-MORAN-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Good evening , everyone . I 'm Terry Moran . Tonight , Scientology under attack . The Church of Scientology now claims membership in the millions and it 's opening lavish new facilities around the globe . Their expansion is helped no doubt by the very high profile of some of the church 's members like Tom Cruise and Kirstie Alley . But it comes in the face of the mounting wave of criticism and online videos and in protests across the country . The woman you 're about to meet is part of that wave . Yet , her criticisms of the church are more surprising perhaps given her family tree . Not only was she raised in the church , she 's a niece of the church 's current leader . This is her story of her life in the Church of Scientology . Lisa Fletcher reports . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) He 's one of the biggest box office draws in history . The face of an impossible mission 's force agent , fearless ' Top Gun " pilot . @!TOM-CRUISE-@1ACTOR# I 'm coming in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ relentless lawyer . @!TOM-CRUISE-@1ACTOR# I want the truth . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) But in recent years , Tom Cruise has also become the face of Scientology . With public and unbridled passion for the church . @!TOM-CRUISE-@1ACTOR# I think it 's a privilege to call yourself a Scientologist. @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) A recent video made for a Scientology event that was leaked online peaked people 's interest in a belief system that has long been surrounded by controversy . @!TOM-CRUISE-@1ACTOR# We are the authorities on getting people off drugs . We are the authorities on the mind . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) He 's vocal about the benefits of Scientology and a supporter and close personal friend of its worldwide leader David Miscavige . Miscavige took over the reigns of power when science fiction author and founder L Ron Hubbard died in 1986. @!DAVID-MISCAVIGE-@1# Scientology is about you , yourself , and what you do . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Miscavige says Scientology can offer its followers greater ability in all areas of life . Rid people of negativity and make them " clear " . @!DAVID-MISCAVIGE-@1# You see , all past attempts have been to bring @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . What we 're trying to do in Scientology is take somebody from this higher level and move them up to greater ability . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) According to the church , Scientology is in the midst of tremendous growth . @!PEDESTRIAN-@1MALE@# Being a Scientologist is basically being someone who helps . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) They claim millions of members in more than 100 countries . @!PEDESTRIAN-@1FEMAL# I am a Scientologist. @!PEDESTRIAN-@1MALE@# I am a Scientologist. @!PEDESTRIAN-@1MALE@# I 'm a Scientologist. @!PEDESTRIAN-@1FEMAL# I 'm a Scientologist. @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Though critics say those numbers are vastly overstated . Recently , the church finds itself under increasing attack . @!ANNOUNCER-@1INTERN# Anonymous has therefore decided that your organization should be destroyed . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) In January , group of online activists known as Anonymous posted this threatening video on the internet. @!ANNOUNCER-@1INTERN# We do not forgive , we do not forget . Expect us. @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) It has since staged a number of anti-Scientology protests across the country . The church has shot back with a video of its own . @!ANNOUNCER-@1INTERN# While claiming they are peaceful , in less than three weeks , Anonymous members @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ against members and officials of the Church of Scientology. @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) New websites critical of Scientology are popping up all over the internet . And just last week , an interview with actor and former Scientology member Jason Beghe was posted on YouTube. @!JASON-BEGHE-@1ACTO# Scientology is destructive and a rip-off. @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) ExScientologykids.com was created by three young women who used to be members of the church . @!JENNA-MISCAVIGE-HI# I was born in New Hampshire and my parents joined the church when I was two . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) One of the women stands out from the crowd of online critics . That 's because on the family tree of Scientology , she 's rooted in deep . She is a niece of leader David Miscavige. @!JENNA-MISCAVIGE-HI# When I was younger , you know , he would send me presents on my birthday . He was , you know , very gregarious , very nice . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Jenna Miscavige Hill was raised in the church . Both her parents were high ranking members of what 's called the Sea Organization , or Sea Org . It is Scientology 's version of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the church . @!JENNA-MISCAVIGE-HI# What we 're told is that they have to work so hard because they 're helping other people . Your family is n't the most important thing . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) From the age of 6 to 12 , Jenna lived here at a Scientology-owned property in California that was known as the ranch . @!JENNA-MISCAVIGE-HI# We lived in dormitories and I would only see my parents once a week . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) According to Jenna , life as a child was not very child-like. @!JENNA-MISCAVIGE-HI# It was like 6:30 wake up . You put on your uniform , you would clean your room . Somebody would stand in front and they would go to each line and they 'd be like , Unit A , report . If you were late , you would get a chit , which would go to your ethics file , which they had one for everyone . One time , a kid got a bucket of ice water dumped on top of his head when he was late even though it was 6:30 in the morning . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) She says @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ had long days on the ranch . In addition to reading , writing and arithmetic classes and studying Scientology , she says there were physical chores . @!JENNA-MISCAVIGE-HI# And these projects ranged from rock hauling , taking rocks out of the creek , picking them up , hauling them up the hill , putting them in a pile . And these were usually to make rock walls . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) As a little girl , she says she remembers weeding for hours . @!JENNA-MISCAVIGE-HI# And we would do this no matter how hot or how cold it was outside . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Somebody might say , you know , if you go to a strict school , a military school , there are going to be certain things that are required of you that may not be required of a kid in public school . @!JENNA-MISCAVIGE-HI# Except I did n't exactly sign up for a military school . I do n't think my parents were trying to sign me up for a military school . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) In an official response to a " Radar " magazine article that included Jenna @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ never forced to engage in manual labor . Claims to the contrary are categorically denied . " About the ranch , which was closed in 1999 , they said that the facilities were nothing short of spectacular . @!JENNA-MISCAVIGE-HI# There 's nothing wrong with your kid working their chores , learning the ways of the world . Does its have to be rock hauling when you 're a girl who 's six years old ? @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Jenna says when she was seven she was asked to sign a billion-year contract to prove her devotion to the church . @!JENNA-MISCAVIGE-HI# It means that , like in Scientology they believe that you live lifetime after lifetime . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Off-camera) So you 've contractually committed yourself for every lifetime you have to Scientology ? @!JENNA-MISCAVIGE-HI# Right . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) After six years at the ranch , at age 12 , Jenna left California for a visit to the church 's so-called Mecca in Clearwater , Florida . She says church elders asked her to remain there and become a full-fledged member of the Sea Org while her parents remained in California . @!JENNA-MISCAVIGE-HI# @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was even about to get on a plane and I just got pulled in a room at screamed at , telling me that , you know , I 'm here to be a Sea Org member . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) At 12 years old , Jenna says life at Clearwater consisted of long days , studying academics and Scientology and hours of administrative tasks and chores . Sometimes , Jenna says , they worked through the night . @!JENNA-MISCAVIGE-HI# You do n't sign up for the nights or you stay up all night , sleep two hours , stay up all night the next night , sleep two hours . I saw my mom probably a half an hour one time from when I was 12 until I was 16 . I saw my dad maybe three times for half an hour each time from 12 until I was 16. @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) In the written statement to " Radar " magazine , concerning Jenna 's account , the church said it , ' Does not comment on how parents choose to educate and raise their children . " Jenna 's parents declined @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , and unknown at the time to Jenna , another young woman was working in the Sea Org. @!ASTRA-WOODCRAFT-@1# When I was 14 , I was recruited to join the Sea Organization . They made it sound so wonderful . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Like Jenna , Astra Woodcraft was the daughter of Scientologists and as a child went to Scientology schools . At age 15 , she married a fellow Sea Org member . Her work day consisted of studying , mostly L Ron Hubbard 's teachings and clerical duties . @!ASTRA-WOODCRAFT-@1# I worked , you know , 15 hours day . And we worked seven days a week . I maybe had two or three days off a year . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Astra says disobedience was n't tolerated in the Sea Org . She says once she refused an order from a higher ranking Sea Org member . @!ASTRA-WOODCRAFT-@1# And he held me up against the wall , screaming in my face . @!LAWRENCE-WOODCRAFT# They 'll paint this extremely rosy picture and it sort of sucks you in. @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Astra 's father , Lawrence Woodcraft , says the family joined @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Scientology . He says they were often assigned to work projects that took them away from their two daughters . @!LAWRENCE-WOODCRAFT# She would happily go for a year or two without seeing them . I 'm sure she missed them , but her total priority was Scientology . And when I had spoken to her about it , she said , well , if I do n't further the aims of Scientology , the kids do n't have a future anyway . So , you know , it was that level of fanaticism I think that drove her . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Astra 's mother did not return " Nightline 's " calls . Lawrence says he grew disillusioned soon after joining the Sea Org . He says he wanted out , but he says taking his children would not be easy . @!COMMERCIAL-BREAK-# @!TERRY-MORAN-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Back now to Lisa Fletcher 's report on two women who left Scientology , including a niece of the church 's worldwide leader . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Jenna Miscavige Hill , a niece of David Miscavige , Scientology 's leader and Astra Woodcraft , grew up in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . He says he felt that was n't an option . @!LAWRENCE-WOODCRAFT# You 'll be declared a suppressive person and then you 'll never speak to your family again . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Suppressive person , or SP , is church lingo for someone who is anti-Scientology , or in their terms , seeks to suppress any betterment activity or group . Tom Cruise referenced SP 's in that leaked Scientology video . @!TOM-CRUISE-@1ACTOR# So , like , have you met an SP ? You know ? And I thought , oh what a beautiful thing because maybe one day it 'll be like that . You know what I 'm saying ? Maybe one day it will be that - wow , SP 's , like they 'll just read about those in the history books , you know . @!ASTRA-WOODCRAFT-@1# If you leave without permission , they declare you a suppressive person and they make your family and all your friends , anyone in Scientology who knows you , they make them disconnect from you . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Despite the risk of being label an SP , Lawrence says he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . He and his wife divorced . @!ASTRA-WOODCRAFT-@1# I was told I could n't see my father anymore because he was n't in the Sea Org. @!LAWRENCE-WOODCRAFT# She was n't every supposed to see me . But she would sneak out and come and see me on Friday morning . @!ASTRA-WOODCRAFT-@1# We had a few hours we were given to do our laundry and I used to sneak off to see him . @!TED-KOPPEL-@1-ABC-# @(Off-camera) There 's a little bit of a problem in getting people to talk critically about the Church of Scientology because quite frankly they 're scared . @!DAVID-MISCAVIGE-@1# Oh , no . No , no , no. @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) In 1992 , ' Nightline 's " Ted Koppel did the one and only network television interview with Jenna 's uncle , David Miscavige , where he challenged him about the church 's policies . @!TED-KOPPEL-@1-ABC-# @(Off-camera) They who do not belong to any organization are quite frankly afraid to come out and speak . @!DAVID-MISCAVIGE-@1# Well , I 'm sorry , no , I 'm sorry , that story does n't hold water . Because I 'll @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ harassed is myself and the church . @!JENNA-MISCAVIGE-HI# I must have been like eight years old . We were all told to watch it . And we like never watched TV . So we were like , oh , yeah , watch TV. @!TED-KOPPEL-@1-ABC-# @(Off-camera) What is it you can do for me ? @!DAVID-MISCAVIGE-@1# Well , number one , I would never try to talk you into that Scientology is for you . @!JENNA-MISCAVIGE-HI# I remember , you know , my parents saying , yeah , he did so good in the interview . When Ted Koppel said negative things about the church , he discredited them in his mind . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) But Jenna says the good relationship she had enjoyed with her uncle would turn sour . She says one day when she was 14 ... @!JENNA-MISCAVIGE-HI# I got in trouble for chitchatting when I was supposed to be studying and I wanted to call my parents . They hung up the phone . And I was like , no , I want to call my parents . I tried to run to the other pay phone to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ People were physically stopping me . Basically I got held down by like three people . I had punched one of them because they were doing that . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Shortly thereafter , she says she was confronted by her uncle . @!JENNA-MISCAVIGE-HI# You know , what you did is unacceptable . You 're not going to get any more special treatment . I was like , if special treatment means being held down and not being allowed to talk to your family , then I am happy to be rid of it . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Celebrity Center International is a Scientology church located in Hollywood , California . It is aptly named , as many Hollywood celebrities are members of the church - Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes , John Travolta and Kirstie Alley . @!KIRSTIE-ALLEY-@1AC# I had one auditing session in Scientology . And I never did drugs again or had the usual to do the drugs again . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Auditing is a fundamental and common practice in Scientology . It 's a kind of counseling session in which a person is asked a series of questions , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ through the use of what 's called an e-meter. @!LAWRENCE-WOODCRAFT# You just basically hold two cans and I think they measure electrical resistance . They have a whole list of prepared questions . You know , are you withholding anything ? Do you have an upset over anything ? In other words , they want to find out what 's going on in your life . @!JENNA-MISCAVIGE-HI# Once a week we would get a meter check where they just have you sit there and they see - observe your needle and if it 's like dirty , then that means you 're hiding something . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) But Jenna says the e-meter and auditing could also be used to interrogate . @!JENNA-MISCAVIGE-HI# Do you have intentions to leave and never come back ? Do you talk about that bad things about the church to your parents ? @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Off-camera) You could be randomly interrogated at any time ? @!JENNA-MISCAVIGE-HI# Yeah . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Off-camera) That 's normal ? @!JENNA-MISCAVIGE-HI# Yeah . I mean usually it 's because they 're suspicious of you . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) In 2000 , Jenna 's parents , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ process of leaving the church . Jenna says around this time , her e-meter sessions suddenly intensified . @!JENNA-MISCAVIGE-HI# One day I just got plucked out of my usual activities and by a very high representative in the church . And I was interrogated on the e-meter and I was put into like a grubby uniform and I was made to clean the back stairwell or clean and re-stain the stalls in the bathroom and then I would go back and get more interrogation . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Jenna says there were times when she was physically restrained during auditing sessions. @!JENNA-MISCAVIGE-HI# There 's been many times when I have tried to leave the room and they physically held me in there . Like physically to the point where I was yelling and screaming . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) But according to this Scientology report , from May 2006 , provided to us by Jenna , the church says she was the violent one . The report states she had a long history of verbally and physically accosting other staff members , neglecting duties , damaging church property , mayhem , mutiny and enturbulation @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the church restrictions pushed her to the breaking point . When we come back , Jenna and Astra deciding to leave the Church of Scientology. @!COMMERCIAL-BREAK-# @!ANNOUNCER-# ' Nightline " continues from Washington with Terry Moran . @!TERRY-MORAN-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) And back now to Lisa Fletcher 's report on two women who grew up in the Church of Scientology , but eventually left the fold . @!ASTRA-WOODCRAFT-@1# I have been very unhappy the whole time I was there , but this is something I never told anyone - my husband , my friends . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Astra Woodcraft was becoming disillusioned with the church . @!ASTRA-WOODCRAFT-@1# They came out with a new rule . They said that 's it , no more kids . @!LAWRENCE-WOODCRAFT# She was very upset when she was about 16 or 17 and said they had suddenly decided to change the rules and that , you know , Sea Org members were no longer allowed to have children . @!JENNA-MISCAVIGE-HI# If you get pregnant when you 're in the Sea Org , you either have to leave or you get an abortion . I know people who have @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , well , wait a minute , I never agreed to this . You know , I 'm like 17 years old , I have n't made a decision I 'm not going to have children . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Two years after the policy was established , Astra learned she and her husband were expecting a baby . @!ASTRA-WOODCRAFT-@1# A very high-level Sea Org member saw me one day and asked me what I was doing , and I said that I was leaving . And he said , why ? And I said I 'm pregnant . And he said , oh , is it too late for an abortion ? In like such a callous way I did n't even know what to say in response . We 're talking about a culture where they think that what they 're doing is so important that everything else is n't important . @GRAPHICS @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) In a ' San Francisco Chronicle " article from 2001 , church leaders responded that it has no policy on abortion , leaving the choice up to individual couples . Lawrence remembers the relief he @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ church . @!LAWRENCE-WOODCRAFT# I think that gradually started to seep in on her , wait a minute , there 's more to life than Scientology . That 's when she just took off , just got the hell out of that rotten organization . Sorry , it make me upset to think about . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Soon after Astra left , she divorced her husband . And she says she was disconnected from her family that was still in the church . A few years later , Astra 's younger sister left too . @!JENNA-MISCAVIGE-HI# I just realized , I was like , this is n't helping me. @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Jenna Miscavige Hill , a niece of David Miscavige , Scientology 's leader , says it was n't until years after her parents left the church that she began to realize she wanted to leave as well . @!JENNA-MISCAVIGE-HI# I do n't even have a life . I do n't get to enjoy things . Who am I really helping ? @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Jenna says she and her husband Dallas went back and forth about leaving or staying in the church @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ But first , Jenna says she was told to sign paperwork promising not to talk about her experiences within the church . @!JENNA-MISCAVIGE-HI# And not to bond , which I did n't sign . I shredded it in front of the lady 's face . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Now out of the church , Astra and Jenna and another ex-Sea Org member started their website , ExScientologyKids.com. @!JENNA-MISCAVIGE-HI# It 's just a way for people to share stories and to maybe reconnect with people who they knew before . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Reconnection was the theme of the latest anti-Scientology protest , staged by the group Anonymous . @!PEDESTRIAN-@1FEMAL# I 'm not a member of Anonymous , but , you know , they are rallying peaceful protests . @!PEDESTRIAN-@1FEMAL# My mom , my grandma and my brother and I have n't heard from them or seen them in eight years . And today , the protest is about disconnection and reconnections. @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Now with her 9-year-old daughter by her side , Astra says she and Jenna are trying to move forward . @!ASTRA-WOODCRAFT-@1# If they would just let people who wanted to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ leave , they let them leave . And if someone did n't like what was going on and they let them speak their mind , there would be no story . @!JENNA-MISCAVIGE-HI# I 'm not going to be scared . I 'm not going to be intimidated . I 'm just going to continue living my life the way I want it to be . I 'm not going to let them affect me anymore . @!LISA-FLETCHER-@1-A# @(Voiceover) For " Nightline " this is Lisa Fletcher in Los Angeles . @!TERRY-MORAN-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) And once again , Jenna 's parents , the brother and sister-in-law of Scientology 's leader declined our requests for an interview . Jenna says that she has a good relationship with her parents now that they have all left the church . When we come back , Scientology responds . @GRAPHICS @!ANNOUNCER-# ABC News ' Nightline " brought to you by ... @!COMMERCIAL-BREAK-# @!TERRY-MORAN-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) For weeks , " Nightline " repeatedly asked the Church of Scientology for an on the record response to our report . Tonight , we received a statement in which the church says @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's " dismissal from her Sea Org position " . @!TERRY-MORAN-@1-ABC# @(Voiceover) It goes on to say , in part , the church will not discuss matters surrounding Mrs Hill . She has used her name to make an otherwise ecclesiastical issue into a family matter and a personal attack on a family matter . The will not relinquish its dignity to engage in such a debate . The church can not respond directly to Mrs Hill 's allegations without impugning her character , something the church will not do . Every religion has its detractors . There is no faith that can satisfy everyone 's spiritual needs , Scientology included . We wish Mrs Hill well in her search for spiritual fulfillment. @!TERRY-MORAN-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) For the full statement , and for more on this story , go to the " Nightline " page at ABCNews.com. @!TERRY-MORAN-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) And that 's our report for tonight . I 'm Terry Moran . For Cynthia McFadden , Martin Bashir and all of us at ABC News , goodnight , America . 
##4022257 @!JOHN-STOSSEL-@1-AB# @(Off-camera) Next Thursday , what are you doing ? Well , tens of thousands of people believe Thursday will be doomsday . They 're followers of a self-proclaimed prophet who 's earned himself a small fortune , and some say a string of women . Is he really a prophet ? Or a profiteer. @!JOHN-STOSSEL-@1-AB# @(Voiceover) Chief investigative correspondent Brian Ross got a rare invitation to enter the House of Yahweh. @GRAPHICS @!CLIP-FROM-TONY-ORL# @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) 1973 . Tony Orlando and Dawn were on TV , singing the country 's number one song . Americans were lining up for gasoline at the record-high price of 50 cents a gallon . And in Abilene , Texas , a man by the name of Buffalo Bill Hawkins was working as a police officer and running a trailer park . @!KAY-@1YISRAYL-HAWK# The first time I met him , he was wearing a cowboy hat , some big old cowboy boots , and he was fixing my front gate . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) Now , 35 years later , Buffalo Bill Hawkins is a millionaire , adored by women of all ages . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ world , right here . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) And idolized by thousands as a self-proclaimed prophet and the founder of his own worldwide religion . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Off-camera) How is it that a former Abilene , Texas policeman now runs a church with thousands , maybe tens of thousands of members ? @!YISRAYL-HAWKINS-@1# I guess I was brought up on the Bible . My mother ... @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Off-camera) That seemed unusual to you ? @!YISRAYL-HAWKINS-@1# Probably so . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) Hawkins is the overseer or , as some call him , the king , of the House of Yahweh , a homemade mix of Jewish and Christian beliefs , where he predicts only his followers will avoid the coming doomsday . @!YISRAYL-HAWKINS-@1# No one else has right to the tree of life , except those who keep the laws of Yahweh. @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) The former policeman founded his religion in the 1980s , around the same time he changed his name from Buffalo Bill to Yisrayl. @!YISRAYL-HAWKINS-@1# Shalom , everyone . @!FOLLOWERS-@1GROUP@# Shalom. @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) Part of what he told ' 20/20 " is a prophecy that can be found in the Bible @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ led to Abilene ? @!YISRAYL-HAWKINS-@1# Oh , yes . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Off-camera) To create and start the House of Yahweh ? @!YISRAYL-HAWKINS-@1# To start the House of Yahweh . And then , the hidden code showed that my name would be Buffalo Bill , but changed to Yisrayl Bill . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Off-camera) That 's in the Bible ? @!YISRAYL-HAWKINS-@1# Yes . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Off-camera) I 've never seen that . @!YISRAYL-HAWKINS-@1# I know . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) And it is here , outside Abilene , Texas , on a huge tract of land , with watch towers and well-guarded gates , that Buffalo Bill Yisrayl Hawkins has built a devoted following that some believe puts its members in danger . @!SHANE-DEEL-@1DISTR# I do n't think there 's any way to describe it but to say it 's a religious cult . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) The local district attorney , Shane Deel , has launched a full investigation into Hawkins and the House of Yahweh , looking at its finances and how its members are treated . @!SHANE-DEEL-@1DISTR# And there are hundreds , if not thousands , of people 's lives that this man has destroyed @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you know , even spiritually . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Off-camera) Outsiders are not welcome . But ' 20/20 " was invited in for an escorted tour . Our guides arranged for some of Hawkins most loyal followers , church elders , to be there . @!FOLLOWER-@1FEMALE@# He 's a great man . @!FOLLOWER-@1FEMALE@# He 's the great teacher . @!FOLLOWER-@1MALE@2-# I love the man . @!FOLLOWER-@1MALE@2-# I would place him next to Yahshua , the savior. @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) They are so loyal that almost all of them have legally changed their names to his , Hawkins . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Off-camera) Are you all essentially named Hawkins ? Everyone has taken the name Hawkins ? @!FOLLOWER-@1FEMALE@# Yes . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) Hawkins denies he has any cult-like control over his followers . @!YISRAYL-HAWKINS-@1# I do n't control their mind in a witch-like fashion that the world is speaking of , to where I have some sort of power over them . I merely teach the laws to them . And I beg them to follow those laws so they 'll be part of Yahweh 's kingdom . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) And to be part of Yahweh 's @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ on his followers is that when the world comes to an end , only those named Hawkins , only those who do what he says , only those in the Yahweh compound in Abilene , Texas , will survive . And nuclear war , he told ' 20/20 , " is now scheduled to begin next Thursday , June 12th , or maybe even sooner . @!YISRAYL-HAWKINS-@1# Oh , yes . It could be . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Off-camera) June 12th. @!YISRAYL-HAWKINS-@1# But it could be turned loose before then . I do n't expect it to be turned loose before then . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Off-camera) When do you expect it to be turned loose ? @!YISRAYL-HAWKINS-@1# By June 12th. @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) Unfortunately for Hawkins , he 's made similar predictions before , in 2000 and then 2006. @!YISRAYL-HAWKINS-@1# Do n't forget , write down this date , September 12th , 2006 , nuclear war . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) In 2006 , his followers began to warn the world , with this online video . @!CLIP-FROM-YAHWEH.C# @!FOLLOWER-@1MALE@2-# Nuclear war is going to begin , September 12th. @!FOLLOWER-@1MALE@2-# Nuclear war will begin September 12th , 2006. @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , 2006. @!FOLLOWER-@1MALE@2-# And remember , the House of Yahweh are the ones that warned you . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) House of Yahweh members in Kenya actually hid in bomb shelters on September 12th , putting on gas masks . But they went home after the day came and went with no nuclear war . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Off-camera) Are you aware that people , in many cases , make you out as a laughing stock for picking these dates and the world 's still there the next day ? @!YISRAYL-HAWKINS-@1# You know , the savior himself told me not to worry about that . He said , ' They 're gon na hate you above all people on the face of the Earth . " They 're gon na hate me above all people on the face of the Earth . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Off-camera) The savior , Jesus Christ , told you that ? @!YISRAYL-HAWKINS-@1# Yes . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Off-camera) When did he tell you that ? @!YISRAYL-HAWKINS-@1# In the scriptures . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) Yet , as wacky as it may seem , his followers still believe him . There are now hundreds of truck @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ food and supplies , ready for next week 's nuclear war . @!DAVID-ALS-@1FORMER# I 'm a black man from New York City . I mean , we 're supposed to be slick and - wise to the street , you know ? And he had me hook , line and sinker . And that 's why I 'm embarrassed . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) There 's a method to his madness , says former member David Als . Once David Als Hawkins , seen here , loading his own doomsday trailer on the compound . It 's greed , Als says . He says members were told to buy their food at inflated prices from a company that Hawkins owns personally . @!DAVID-ALS-@1FORMER# Everything that he preaches has to do with people buying something . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) But the doomsday predictions also serve to keep some disillusioned members , including Miriam Martin , from leaving . @!MIRIAM-MARTIN-@1FO# For years , he 's been saying , " Just give me two more years . We 're right at the end . Why would you give up now ? You 'd have to be a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 're right here at the end . You 're gon na walk away from salvation ? You 're gon na give up your salvation , and never have another opportunity . " See , that 's how he controls people is through fear . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) And there is much to fear , she and other former members say , about the prophet from Abilene and a very dark side of his life . @!KAY-@1YISRAYL-HAWK# All Yisrayl wants is your money and your daughters . Because it has turned into a sex cult . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) That 's next , when our ' 20/20 " investigation continues . @!COMMERCIAL-BREAK-# @!MIRIAM-MARTIN-@1FO# I remember watching him leave . I was standing at the window . And I was watching . And I saw the headlights . And I just was crying , just crying and crying . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) It was the night Miriam Martin says her husband left for a Dallas motel to take a second wife , his right according to what 's called ' The Laws of Slavery and Marriage of the House of Yahweh " in Abilene , Texas @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ followed . @!MIRIAM-MARTIN-@1FO# You have to learn to submit . You have to learn to love it . So , you just keep trying to put down your emotions and put down your pain . That 's how you - that 's how the women do over there . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) Miriam Martin 's now ex-husband denies he had two wives . But she says it was the man called the king , the self-proclaimed prophet who founded the religion , Yisrayl Hawkins , who gave her husband , and others , approval for a secret second marriage . @!MIRIAM-MARTIN-@1FO# Yisrayl asked him . He said , ' Have you f'ed her yet ? " And he said , ' No , I have n't . " So , he said , ' You take her to a hotel , put your talid around her , which is a man 's prayer shawl , say a vow , and then f her . " And that 's exactly the instruction that he told him to do , and how he told him to perform this marriage . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Off-camera) That was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @(Voiceover) She says she and her children became her husband 's second family , essentially abandoned , and that there was nothing religious or righteous about it . @!MIRIAM-MARTIN-@1FO# And he told me years later that he married her because I did not give him enough sex . And that is not a righteous reason for a man to claim that you 're going to , you know , take another wife , because you say that she does n't give you enough sex . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Off-camera) So , it was about the sex ? @!MIRIAM-MARTIN-@1FO# Absolutely . And in fact , it 's very promoted over there that if a man has sex , especially , like , with a virgin , you know , if he , and there were men who forced themselves on young girls , because then she had to belong to him , because he had sex with her . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) When Hawkins founded his own religion in the 1980s , he railed against fornication and adultery . @!YISRAYL-HAWKINS-@1# ... verse 20 , your neighbor 's wife , you shall not approach her to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) But Hawkins ex-wife , Kay , says that all changed when she caught him cheating on her with his then-secretary. @!KAY-@1YISRAYL-HAWK# I wanted him to say , ' Yes , I have sinned . I 'm sorry . " But instead , he said , ' I have not sinned . " And he had the biggest proud look on his face . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) And then , she says , Hawkins , rewrote the religion 's laws to justify multiple wives and keep women in their place . ' Three are better than two , " he wrote , ' and two are better than one . " @!KAY-@1YISRAYL-HAWK# So now , he has established a sex cult . @!YISRAYL-HAWKINS-@1# I would n't know what she 's talking about there . The way I deal with women , I teach them the laws of Yahweh. @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) Hawkins says his ex-wife is one of many traitors , backsliders , who left years ago because they could n't live up to laws of Yahweh. @!YISRAYL-HAWKINS-@1# They 're like dogs who turn back to their own vomit . Or like @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the mud . That 's what the scripture describes them as . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) But Texas law enforcement authorities say they are now taking the allegations of the group 's defectors seriously . District attorney Shane Deel says , in addition to allegations of polygamy , there are allegations that children and teenagers are being abused under the guise of religion . @!SHANE-DEEL-@1DISTR# There comes a point , you know , when you 're violating the law , then you ca n't hide behind that religious shield . And you 're gon na be held accountable . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) Authorities found a 7-year-old girl had died on the compound after a botched surgery by one of the Yahweh 's herbalists. @!SHANE-DEEL-@1DISTR# And none of them are strictly forbidden to go to the doctor , but they 're certainly discouraged from it . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) In another case , one of Hawkins top people , Yaddidiah Hawkins @(PH) , is now awaiting trial , after pleading not guilty to charges he sexually assaulted his teenage stepdaughter . Do you think this was known inside the House of Yahweh ? @!SHANE-DEEL-@1DISTR# We suspect @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to the authorities ? @!SHANE-DEEL-@1DISTR# Correct . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) As to Hawkins himself , the prosecutor says Hawkins owns a series of expensive homes , where he hides his own various wives and families . How many wives does he have ? @!SHANE-DEEL-@1DISTR# We have heard allegations of as many as 30. @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) Hawkins acknowledges he wrote that the law of Yahweh allows multiple wives . But he says that until doomsday comes , he and his followers observe the law of the land . @!YISRAYL-HAWKINS-@1# Now , when the kingdom of Yahweh takes over , those that want to marry someone , you know , have an extended family of some kind , the Bible does n't forbid it . But it does , the laws of the land forbids it now . So , we say do n't do it . So I ... @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Off-camera) How many wives do you have ? @!YISRAYL-HAWKINS-@1# I 've got a wife . One wife . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Off-camera) He told us he has one wife , and one wife only . @!SHANE-DEEL-@1DISTR# I 'd like to have him say that under @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Including these birth certificates , in which two different young women , age 19 and 21 , listed Yisrayl Hawkins as the father of their children , born in 2007 . Late last month , ' 20/20 " cameras were there when Hawkins was put under arrest . @!POLICE-OFFICER-@1M# You 're under arrest . I have felony warrants for you . Step this way . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) He is now charged with felony counts of bigamy and arranging for others to become bigamists . Hawkins says law enforcement is going after him because they do n't like his brand of religion . @!YISRAYL-HAWKINS-@1# These are false , false charges . I know that I 'm not guilty of anything like this . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) But he says if it helped bring ' 20/20 " to Abilene , it was a good thing . @!YISRAYL-HAWKINS-@1# I believe that Yahweh allowed this to be done , to have you come here and spread this message with me. @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Off-camera) This is all part of a grand plan ? @!YISRAYL-HAWKINS-@1# I believe so . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) Tonight , Hawkins is back among his followers @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ convicted . And prosecutors say they 're concerned about a recent series of sermons in which the king warned about authorities moving in on the House of Yahweh. @!YISRAYL-HAWKINS-@1# Maybe they 'll come in shooting . I do n't know . @!BRIAN-ROSS-@1-ABC-# @(Voiceover) And he asked his followers if they were ready to be faithful to him to the end . @!YISRAYL-HAWKINS-@1# I 'm not asking much out of you . I 'm just asking that you be willing to die rather than leave this house . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS-@# @(Off-camera) The women in the House of Yahweh have a lot more to say . You can hear inside stories from both current and former members on ' 20/20 's " webpage at ABCNEWS.com . We 'll be right back . @!COMMERCIAL-BREAK-# @!JOHN-STOSSEL-@1-AB# Next week , you 're going to meet an extraordinary little girl . Just two years old , and already worshiped like a goddess . Because she 's considered the reincarnation of one . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS-@# And you can see why . She was born with eight limbs , like the depictions of the Hindu goddess , Lakshmi . @!VILLAGER-@1MALE@2-# Everybody @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Godsend . They almost worshiped her in the village . @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS-@# But to her parents , she was just a child . So , they faced a tough decision , whether to put her through a very risky surgery , to remove the extra limbs . @!JOHN-STOSSEL-@1-AB# Bob Brown teams up with National Geographic to bring you this one-of-a-kind story next Friday . And that 's our program for tonight . Thanks for watching . I 'm John Stossel. @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS-@# And I 'm Elizabeth Vargas . For all of us at ' 20/20 , " we 're in touch , so you be in touch . Good night . 
##4022263 @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) And after a quick change of seats , we are joined by Governor Mitt Romney of Massachusetts , former Governor Mitt Romney of Massachusetts . You heard Governor Huckabee there . He 's not backing away from his criticism of the Bush administration foreign policy and he stands by his assertion that he was supporting the surge before you . @!MITT-ROMNEY-@12008# Well , you saw very clearly that was n't the case . Actually in the interview it was pointed out that John McCain and Mitt Romney supported the surge and then they were asked - then he was asked , do you also support the surge , and he expressed his concerns about the surge , and it 's legitimate to have concerns , but it was very clear that I supported it before he did as opposed to the way he described it in the debate last night . I think more fundamental , however , was his mistaken approach in saying that the president or the president 's administration is an arrogant bunker mentality administration . That I think is simply wrong . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ that the war has been not conducted perfectly is totally appropriate . Military historians are quick to point that out , as is the President . But to say that this president acted out of arrogance or out of a bunker mentality is simply wrong . He listened to alternative voices and he took the course which he thought was best for America and he kept us safe . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) You and John McCain also went at it on the issue of immigration again and whether or not his plan is a plan that includes amnesty . Here 's what you said last night . @!MITT-ROMNEY-@12008# I do n't describe your plan as amnesty in my ad . I do n't call it amnesty . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) But here 's your ad. @!ANNOUNCER-@1ROMNEY# On immigration McCain supported this year 's amnesty bill , higher taxes , amnesty for illegals . That 's straight talk for being in Washington too long . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Had you not seen your own ad ? @!MITT-ROMNEY-@12008# I had n't seen that one and my staff told me afterwards it does say amnesty and I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , two ads . Both of them say it . @!MITT-ROMNEY-@12008# Yeah , there 's a man in the street one that says amnesty , as well and I was simply incorrect . His bill - he does not technically under the term support amnesty because he says , well , he makes them pay $5,000 and technically that 's not amnesty . And I guess that 's true . You could say to somebody , if you pay 5 bucks , that is not amnesty , but the reality is it 's a ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) So is it amnesty or not ? @!MITT-ROMNEY-@12008# Well , you 're going to have to define the word for me . I call it ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) You 're running for president , not me. @!MITT-ROMNEY-@12008# Okay . Well , when you ask the question , when you ask the question , you want a specific answer based on your definition . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Yes . @!MITT-ROMNEY-@12008# My definition is this , that if a - if illegals are able to all stay in this country and thereby get an enormous advantage over @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) So you do believe his plan is amnesty then ? @!MITT-ROMNEY-@12008# Not under a legal definition but under the normal colloquial definition , yes . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) I do n't understand the distinction . @!MITT-ROMNEY-@12008# But let me tell you this . Why do n't I just tell you what his ad - what his posture does . What his posture does is it says that every alien in this country who is here illegally gets to stay here for the rest of their life and that is wrong . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) He denies that , of course . @!MITT-ROMNEY-@12008# Well , but look at the bill . Look at the bill . He tries to turn and twist . The bill that he came out with , the last bill that he stood up with Senator Kennedy and the others and said this is our bill , it provides for a Z visa , a temporary visa for everyone here illegally , and it says it 's renewable indefinitely . That is a permanent right to stay in America . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) So I 'm going to take @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) You know , it really did seem last night like you ... @!MITT-ROMNEY-@12008# And by the way , the good news , let me just underscore something else . For me the good news is - see , he 's been talking out there about how now he learned his lesson . He wants to secure the border . He wants to secure the border first . He 's been diverting from the fact that he continues to believe that the aliens that are here illegally should be able to stay . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) So you 're standing by your ads . You believe it 's amnesty ? @!MITT-ROMNEY-@12008# Oh absolutely , it 's right . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Let 's move on because last night you seemed to take hits from just about everyone on that stage . @!MITT-ROMNEY-@12008# Was n't that great ? It was terrific . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) I ca n't believe you believe it was great and terrific but ... @!MITT-ROMNEY-@12008# It puts me - it 's like the guy with the ball is the guy people are trying to tackle so I 'm delighted @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it 's like that old joke I 'll talk about me , when I get finished why do n't you talk about me. @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Well let me show you , you did n't look so delighted last night . @!MITT-ROMNEY-@12008# Do n't try and characterize my position . Of course this war has not ... @!SENATOR-JOHN-MCCAI# Which one ? @!SENATOR-JOHN-MCCAI# I just wanted to say to Governor Romney , we disagree on a lot of issues , but I agree you are the candidate of change . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) It seems like this flip-flopper charge has stuck . @!MITT-ROMNEY-@12008# Yeah , I think the McCain campaign from the very beginning did a masterful political job of trying to tag me with that and it keeps on being promoted and promulgated . And that 's just the way it is . I have to live with that . I keep on describing how my positions are entirely consistent with the actions I took as governor . I was a governor four years . Every aspect of my presidential campaign follows entirely from the actions I took as governor . But , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 1994 when I was running against Ted Kennedy and on the issue of abortion I did change my mind on that . And I know there are some who just will never forgive you for becoming pro-life , but I 'm not going to apologize for that . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) You know , there seemed to be something else going on on the stage last night . I just wonder what you think about it . I watched Mike Huckabee , Mitt Romney , Rudy Giuliani , Fred Thompson , all of them jumping on and it seems like they have almost a visceral dislike of you . @!MITT-ROMNEY-@12008# Oh , I think people recognize I 'm at a pretty good position and , frankly , I think people who watch the debate had to say to themselves , what is it about these politicians that are more focused on insults than on issues ? It 's what 's wrong with politics . We have extraordinary challenges in America right now . But Washington is unable to deal with the challenges because they 're so consumed with score settling and attacks @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to have somebody who just does n't care about all the attacks and the insults , who is focused on getting the job done for the American people . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) You say you 're in a pretty good position yet your entire strategy called the kindling strategy , Iowa and New Hampshire , the kindling , they spark a wildfire that carries you through the whole primaries . You lost Iowa . You 're behind here in the polls right now . If you lose in New Hampshire , is n't it the end of the line ? @!MITT-ROMNEY-@12008# Well , let 's get the record entirely straight here . I won Wyoming last night . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) You did win Wyoming . @!MITT-ROMNEY-@12008# I won Wyoming and , number two , the poll this morning , the Zogby Tracking Poll has me in the lead in New Hampshire . They must have liked the debate last night . And I 'm planning on winning in New Hampshire . It may not happen but there was something else that happened along the way , the need for getting those early @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was the powerhouse I 'd be facing in Florida at the end . So I better get ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) He 's not a powerhouse anymore ? @!MITT-ROMNEY-@12008# Well , he does n't look like the powerhouse he was . As a matter of fact , in the national polls he 's not leading anymore . So the dynamics will change . I 'm not a political pundit . But I can tell you all I can do as a candidate is describe the things I believe in , fight for them . I 'm a candidate that will bring change to Washington . I do n't care about who gets the credit , who gets the blame . I 'm going to change Washington , to solve our immigration problems , education problems , get health care for all our citizens , get the tax burden down for middle income Americans and put together a comprehensive strategy to defeat global jihad , not just militarily but with our nonmilitary resources as well , and that 's something which Americans are looking for , and , you know , how the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ of my control . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) One final question , you did spend a lot of time and spend a lot of money in Iowa and but we saw this huge turnout by evangelical born again Christians , 60% of the voters in Iowa , and they broke heavily , more than 30 points for Mike Huckabee . Did your Mormon faith defeat you in Iowa ? @!MITT-ROMNEY-@12008# You know , it probably played a role for some people . I do n't think for the majority of people it played a significant role . I think more than likely that Mike Huckabee as a Baptist preacher was able to draw on a lot of people very comfortable with a member of their faith and that drew a huge support for him . He ran a good campaign , congratulations for doing that . But it 's an entire nation with differing views and I anticipate that issues and vision and experience will trump those things in the final analysis . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Governor Romney , thanks very much . @!MITT-ROMNEY-@12008# Thanks , George . Good to be with you . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Donna Brazile , Cokie Roberts , and Sam Donaldson . @GRAPHICS @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Voiceover) And later " The Sunday Funnies. " @!DAVID-LETTERMAN-@1# The writers strike is still going on . And during the strike I like to show my support . So here 's what I would do . I would go out to the picket line every day and as I drove by I 'd have my chauffeur honk. @!COMMERCIAL-BREAK-# @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) The roundtable and " The Sunday Funnies " live from New Hampshire after this from our ABC stations . COMMERCIAL BREAK ' 
##4022350 @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) I 'm here now , come on , come on , we 're just getting set here . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) We 're just getting situated . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) I know . @!SUSAN-LUCCI-@1ACTO# Hello . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) How are you ? @!SUSAN-LUCCI-@1ACTO# Great . How are you ? @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) You little , pixie you . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) I said that , lil bit . @!SUSAN-LUCCI-@1ACTO# Thank you . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) I called her lil bit . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) And Anita , nothing but love for you . Anita Renfroe as always , always . @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) All love . I just read your book . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Oh , thank you ... @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Lovely . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) ... thank you , thank you , thank you . And where are my manners ? And now our ' Breakfast Club " tackles the toughest issues of the day . @GRAPHICS @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Voiceover) What everybody 's talking about over their coffee this morning , and joining us now , are club members Deborah Roberts , and of course , Anita Renfroe , and our special guest ' @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!SUSAN-LUCCI-@1ACTO# Oh , I like the way you say that . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Oh , yes . So let 's dish a little bit here , all right ? @!SUSAN-LUCCI-@1ACTO# All right . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) It 's spring time and summer time , a lot of folks are coming over to visit and everything , and so we talked about , you know where we 're going here , company that 's staying , how do you kinda know when it 's time for them maybe to go away . @GRAPHICS @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) I have to tell you that I 'm from the south , and you know this ... @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Yes , ma'am . @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) ... where vacation and family visits are the same thing . If you choose to stay in a hotel , you 're the uppity relations , okay ? So , if you also buy a house in the most interesting city , you brought it on yourself , because that 's everybody comes , so it 's your own dang fault . But my auntie used to say never mistake tolerance for hospitality @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , you stay as long as the host has extended that invitation for . If they say hi , why do n't you come for the weekend ? I do n't think you should think you could stay for the week . @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Yeah . @!SUSAN-LUCCI-@1ACTO# I think that 's pretty clear . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) That 's a good rule of thumb . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) That sounds pretty good . But what if you do n't even invite and people just call you and say I 'm coming ? ' Cause that 's what they do at my house , they just call and say I 'm coming , you know , and you just , do you open the doors ? @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) A real shallow pantry , you wan na - you do n't go too deep and then leave after three or four days , they 'll get the hint . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) Yeah , the whole fish thing right after three days , right ? @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Another thing and I was talking with some young folks downstairs about this . When things do n't work @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ quits , so you understand that now some young folks , they 're texting , they 're putting it in a text message . @!SUSAN-LUCCI-@1ACTO# I know , no , no. @!SUSAN-LUCCI-@1ACTO# @(Off-camera) I do n't believe that . @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Absolutely . @!SUSAN-LUCCI-@1ACTO# I find that - personality , I find that really horrifying . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Yeah . @!SUSAN-LUCCI-@1ACTO# I mean , imagine getting a text messages , hi , you 're out of here . I mean , I - think , if you 've had a relationship with somebody that you owe them some respect ... @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Sure . @!SUSAN-LUCCI-@1ACTO# ... to , to tell them , at least by voice , but I really think in person . And if you 're afraid for any reason , you know , do it in a public place , go for coffee , take a walk , have your father in the next room . I mean , some ... @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) Where they ca n't hurt you . @!SUSAN-LUCCI-@1ACTO# Yes . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) But I think e-mail really is becoming just a really horrible thing in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you can say things that you would n't normally say , I do it all the time , you know , you do n't wan na call somebody , you e-mail them , but breaking up over text is really pretty bad . @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) It 's literally the least you can do , is n't it ? I mean , seriously ... @!SUSAN-LUCCI-@1ACTO# It 's the least you can do . @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) ... but , you know , really in our generation - it 's a generational thing , I think , because our kids , they begin dating through text messaging , they flirt through text messaging . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) Sometimes , they date completely the whole time just over text messaging . @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) The whole time , right . So why not break up ... @!SUSAN-LUCCI-@1ACTO# Well , they 're missing so much . @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Maybe @(inaudible) . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) There 's only so much you can do . @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) And after you text him to break up , do n't you have to change your number right after so he ca n't keep @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @(Voiceover) There you have it . @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) You @(inaudible) . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) But we ca n't just blame it on young people because remember the ' Sex and the City " episode , and the post-it , broke up on the post-it . Remember that ? When Carrie got this ... @!CLIP-FROM- " SEX-IN-# @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Voiceover) That 's the precursor to the test . @!SUSAN-LUCCI-@1ACTO# I 've heard of marriages being ended this way . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Oh ? @!SUSAN-LUCCI-@1ACTO# If somebody wants a divorce . @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Yeah , K-Fed , did n't K-Fed ... @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) Or through a letter . @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) ... get his - through , on a text . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) That 's how he learned about the divorce with Britney. @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Yeah , or maybe on PerezHilton.com . He looked it up . I do n't know , they get the dish first , but either way , it 's a painful way . @!SUSAN-LUCCI-@1ACTO# Yes , I would think so . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) I mean , it 's not great in the - in a public setting or at the restaurant @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ it 's never great . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) But I think this is not the way to do it . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) But , I think , you said , because so many young people , that 's how they communicate , they just think that 's an extension of that . @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Sure . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# Okay , I went - dancing this week with Diane and Sam and Chris , and ... @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Oh , how fun . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) ... yeah , it was fun , but Sam and Chris showed too much of their chest . You know , you 'll see this in - at an appropriate time . You 'll see the footage of this . And it got us thinking about how much , you know , men are getting very comfortable with having that lower - the cleavage . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Voiceover) The plunging neckline like on ' Dancing with the Stars . " @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Yeah , right . Exactly . @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Voiceover) And maybe , since you went dancing ... @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# Well , that 's why they did it . @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Voiceover) @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ dancing now . I mean , speaking of that ... @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Voiceover) What do you think ? @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Voiceover) ... I have to say , if you 're Cameron Mathison , who plays Ryan on ' All My Children ... " @!SUSAN-LUCCI-@1ACTO# Then you can do it . @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Then you can do it , and should do it probably at any time , but he does it in an appropriate way . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Voiceover) Okay , I 'll defend my Sam and Chris . They 're good looking men , too , just like Cameron . I will defend them . @!SUSAN-LUCCI-@1ACTO# And they sure are , absolutely . Well , I mean , Cameron did it on - does it on ' All My Children , " but also ' Dancing with the Stars , " it was organic to his Superman dance . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Exactly , so , in the appropriate setting , you think it 's okay ? @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) I do n't know , it 's not new like Tom Jones and Mr. T , you know , they 've been showing everybody , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , to get the slickness you know down there ? Although it is good , it makes them better husbands and boyfriends because they understand the pain of waxing. @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) But I do n't want my husband wearing a plunging neckline , I mean I 'm sorry , I just , no ... @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Oh , come on , if they 're Italian . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) And the next thing you know , he 's gon na add a gold chain , or something like that . No , no , no , I 'm sorry . I think the button down ... @!SUSAN-LUCCI-@1ACTO# Yeah , I do n't want my husband doing it either . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) Yeah , the look near the - the buttoned-up look near the throat is better . @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) I do know some men who could benefit from drive-by waxings , like here and here . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Oh , we 're not gon na go there . @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Because , you know , we need to @(inaudible) . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) That 's another story . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) That 's another @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ wan na dish about ? I 'm - gon na throw a jump ball . What it 's - what 's on your mind ? Anita , what 's been going on your mind ? @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) On my mind ? @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) What 's going around your kitchen table ? @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) What 's bothering you ? @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Well , do you remember I did a - we were doing a segment on swimsuit shopping and I want to tell you , that is the most painful experience in a woman 's life . There 's no two ways about it . Do you have a swimsuit for this season ? @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) Yeah , I do . But you know , I mean , I just sort of carry them over from year to year . I 'm not one of those person - those people who has to buy one every year . @!SUSAN-LUCCI-@1ACTO# Same here . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) It 's like , who wants to go do that ? @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) If you find a good one , stick with it . That 's what I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ - were you looking at me , because I 'm leaving after the show going down to Key West . @!SUSAN-LUCCI-@1ACTO# Oh . @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) No. @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) You going swimsuit shopping ? @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Yes . So , I 'm like oh , and ... @!SUSAN-LUCCI-@1ACTO# I think next to jeans , in fact , I think bathing suits are the hardest and then comes jeans . You can try on a hundred bathing suits and a hundred pairs of jeans , ' til you find exactly the one that works for you . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Yeah , but the bathing suit , there 's something intimidating , especially this time of the year , when it 's summer time coming up and you just want to - you want to look a certain way . @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Yeah , and you got to ... @!SUSAN-LUCCI-@1ACTO# And you 're not exactly bathing suit ready . @(Inaudible) . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) Winter stuff kind of left over , you know . @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Need a body transplant , is what I need . Yeah , like my face is still the same @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is very sad . It 's all new stuff from last year , yeah it 's very sad . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) And what you are talking about around your kitchen table , Susan ? @!SUSAN-LUCCI-@1ACTO# Well , we 've been actually talking about this too because bathing suit season is coming up and traveling . I mean , I think that men have the same challenges that - as women , what are you all think about men in Speedos ? @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) Oh , no. @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) I asked ... @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) Most men should not be in Speedos. @!SUSAN-LUCCI-@1ACTO# Right . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) Olympic swimmers and that 's about it . @!SUSAN-LUCCI-@1ACTO# And divers maybe . @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) That other people who wax , Olympic swimmers . But you know the guys ... @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) @(Inaudible) . @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) I am . I do n't know why , it 's very painful , but I was thinking about men on cruises , the elder gentlemen that wear Speedos to the swimming pool on the cruise . And they have a toupee on there , basically wrong at both ends @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you know , I also think it has to do with not just age appropriate but I mean , a lot of times , you want to say cover up and you - and you know , you say to yourself , well , cover up . But I do n't think it 's just age appropriate , I think it 's also weight appropriate and situation appropriate . @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Yeah , and you need to be careful swimming after 40 regardless , because the lifeguards are just not gon na try as hard . @!SUSAN-LUCCI-@1ACTO# Just take a walk on the beach and call it a day . @!DEBORAH-ROBERTS-@1# @(Off-camera) @(Inaudible) bathing suit @(inaudible) on top of it too , just go . @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Yeah , correct . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) They 're not gon na try as hard if you 're over 40 ? @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) They 're gon na let you drown . @!SUSAN-LUCCI-@1ACTO# They 've have a life , let them go . @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Exactly . She had a good long life . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Now that we 've got all that settled this morning @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ swimsuit and the lifeguard will save you down in the Keys . @!ANITA-RENFROE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Well , and I think if you can find like some tiger stripes to blend in with your stretch marks @(inaudible) . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) All the things we 've learned . Thank you so much . @!SUSAN-LUCCI-@1ACTO# Thank you so much . Robin . So much fun . @!ROBIN-ROBERTS-@1-A# @(Off-camera) @(Inaudible) . It is not easy being green , but it sure is good for the kids and the planet . We have great tips on raising happy , healthy greener children . Sam will talk about that next . Come on back . COMMERCIAL BREAK ' 
##4022356 @!ELIZABETH-VARGAS-@# @(Off-camera) Now , a man who spent half his young life in jail . 20 years for a crime he did n't commit . What would he do when he finally got out ? Plan payback against the prosecutor and the judge who put him there ? As Mary Fulginiti reports , this man did n't . He did something extraordinary . And now , he 's rich . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Voiceover) Millionaire businessman DeWayne McKinney is living his dream in paradise . His spacious Hawaiian waterfront home looks like a designer showroom , filled with all the trappings of a good life . Not bad for a man once sentenced to life in prison for a murder he never committed . @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# In prison , it 's an unforgiving world . Very , very unforgiving . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Voiceover) In an place where you would expect to find the worst of human nature , McKinney instead discovers the best of himself and the power of forgiveness. @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Off-camera) Did you ever think , given your past , that you would be where you are today ? @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# I @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ this . @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# @(Voiceover) The road to prison began here for him , on the streets of South Central Los Angeles . As a young boy , he lived happily in this modest home , where he says he was a shy and obedient kid who worshipped his mother , a single parent . @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# And I like to refer to myself as a mama 's boy . You know , I was very , very close to my mother . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Voiceover) He was only 12 when she died . Life changed overnight . His grief , he says , was more than he could handle . One by one , he rejected family members who took him in. @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# So , I pretty much lived on the streets as a runaway . You know hungry , tired . And this family invited me in. @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Voiceover) A family of gang members , known as the 52nd Street Crips . Before long , 15-year-old McKinney was one of them . Did you commit any crimes ? @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# Yeah , yeah , I did . I believe I was arrested for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ robbery . McKinney took us back to those mean streets of his gangster past . Does this bring back memories ? @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# Yes , it did . Actually , I was shot right in front of this house . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Off-camera) Who were you shot by ? @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# More than likely a rival gang . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Voiceover) But life for McKinney was about to get a whole lot worse than a gunshot wound . A few weeks later , he was pulled over on a routine traffic violation . What happened next was anything but routine . What were you arrested for ? @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# First-degree murder . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Voiceover) Twenty years ago , Orange County District Attorney Tony Rackauckas was the ambitious , young prosecutor assigned to the McKinney case . Armed with eyewitness testimony , he never doubted DeWayne McKinney was the cold-blooded assailant who 'd robbed and gunned down the night manager of the local Burger King . Rackauckas would ask jurors to take McKinney 's life in return . Why were you so convinced of his guilt ? @!TONY-RACKAUCKAS-@1# The people who were put into a meat cooler @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ told me that was him . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Off-camera) And when the workers came out of the cooler finally , what did they see ? @!TONY-RACKAUCKAS-@1# They saw the young manager there with his head on the desk in a pool of blood . @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# No matter how loud I yelled or how loud I screamed , no one would , really heard me because my lifestyle basically said just the opposite . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Off-camera) Meaning , you are a gangbanger , no one is gon na believe what you say , anyways. @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# Exactly , exactly . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Voiceover) And the jury was no exception . They found 19-year-old McKinney guilty . Though he dodged the death penalty , he still got life without parole . But McKinney says something happened to him during that year in jail , a startling transformation . He began to reevaluate his life . @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# I tried to just walk away with saying , ' Okay , maybe I need to , to learn something from this . Maybe I need to try and understand how I got here . " @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Voiceover) And although @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to change his outlook , slowly releasing the anger that once gripped him . @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# I came to the conclusion that I would just treat everyone the same . I would treat everyone with dignity , respect , kindness and integrity . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Voiceover) Prison is no place for kindness or forgiveness . But McKinney says he was determined to serve his time his way . He severed all gang ties , a perilous decision that could cost him his life . What was your biggest fear entering prison ? @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# My greatest fear was my reluctance to hate . My reluctance to - hold on to any negativity would be my greatest weakness . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Off-camera) You forgive . @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# I forgive . And I know that 's , that 's an unacceptable trait within that environment . Every day was lived in fear . I was placed in an environment where life did n't mean anything . I was stabbed multiple times . I probably experienced everything one can experience under those circumstances . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Voiceover) For years , he kept hope alive by writing his life story for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ years behind bars , McKinney faced his darkest day . His case was rejected . @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# And it was like , ' Oh , my God . I 'm gon na die in here . " And so I begin yelling to God . Just praying , ' God , I ca n't . I ca n't do it . I ca n't do it no more . " And so , the conclusion that I came to was , like , ' How do I take my life ? " And the only choice that I really had was just run for the gate and make them shoot me. @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Voiceover) But a breakthrough was about to come his way . An inmate who had remained silent all of these years would confess to planning the Burger King robbery that ended in murder . He would also clear McKinney 's name . @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# He wrote a declaration , proclaiming his involvement and also naming the person that was actually responsible for the crime . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Voiceover) Only one person now stood between McKinney and freedom , Tony Rackauckas . The @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ now the district attorney of Orange County . @!TONY-RACKAUCKAS-@1# I had excellent , excellent investigators with a lot of experience go over the information that was given to us by the defense . And they came back and they told me that they thought he was innocent . By the way , because these are people that start out thinking that this whole idea of DeWayne McKinney is innocent is a scam. @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Voiceover) And in the rarest of moves , Rackauckas stepped aside , clearing the way for McKinney 's immediate release . @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# You know , despite his career , despite his position , he was willing to stand up and do the right thing . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Voiceover) Justice at last . Robbed of the last 19 years of his life , DeWayne McKinney , now 39 , smiled as he threw his prison clothes to the floor and walked toward freedom . @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# Everybody was just so happy . So thrilled . And so the whole yard , kind of , just cheered me on and stood up and just clapped . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Voiceover) But like any good @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ twist worthy of an Oscar . @!ANNOUNCER-# When ' 20/20 " continues , 20 years of his life , stolen by the law . @!TONY-RACKAUCKAS-@1# You know , a California prison is not an easy place to be . @!ANNOUNCER-# How would he even the score ? Next . @!COMMERCIAL-BREAK-# @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Voiceover) January 2000 , the dawn of a new millennium , and DeWayne McKinney , a quiet , humble man , finally , has his life back after 19 years in prison for a murder he never committed . And as hard as it is to believe , in McKinney 's mind , prison changed him for the better . Listen to what he had to say on the day of his release . @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# I ca n't say that I enjoyed doing the time . But because of the time , it made me who I am . And so , you know , I do n't hold any resentment or bitterness . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Voiceover) No bitterness because he 'd succeeded in serving his time , his way . In the face of hostility and repeated stabbings in prison @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ end , he says , he 'd made a difference . Now , a brave , new world that he knew little about lay ahead . Were you surprised at how the world have changed ? @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# Very much so . When I went in , I do n't think I had ever seen a VCR . I had never seen a cell phone . I used to refer to myself early on as Rip Van Winkle . I had been asleep for 20 years . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Off-camera) And you get out of prison with no money , no clothes , no place to go . But somehow you do land on your feet . @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# Yes . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Off-camera) How does that happen ? @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# It 's just a lot of good people out there . And , and I 'm just , all I can say is I 'm just so thankful because that , the people did rally around me and was willing to help me. @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Voiceover) News of his wrongful imprisonment made headlines in Southern California . An investigator who 'd worked to free McKinney took @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ him buy clothes , get a driver 's license , even land a job at UC Irvine . @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# I started off probably making about $15 an hour . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Off-camera) That 's a lot of money , though ... @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# Yeah , yeah . That was ... @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Off-camera) ... thinking of where you came from , you know , which is nothing . @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# Yeah . And I was , I was making eight cents an hour prior to that . So , it was definitely a lot of money . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Voiceover) But his biggest payday was just around the corner . Over two years after his release , McKinney won a settlement from those responsible for robbing him of nearly half his life . He walked away with $1 million . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Off-camera) So , what did you do with the money ? Did you go spend it ? @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# No , no . I actually didn't. @!JEFF-RAWITZ-@1DEWA# We all just figured the money was gon na be blown . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Voiceover) His restraint shocked his attorney , Jeff Rawitz. @!JEFF-RAWITZ-@1DEWA# We thought that DeWayne was naive @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ new world . And that people were gon na descend on him like vultures . @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# They actually would n't let me - leave the room because I had a check in hand . And they were like , ' Oh , DeWayne , do n't go nowhere . We got some people who wan na talk to you , we need you to talk to . " So , they refused to let me leave until I sat down with a lot of financial advisers . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Voiceover) And much to everyone 's surprise , he rejected their advice . @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# I did n't really know what I was gon na do in terms of business . But I was n't willing to gamble because what I would be gambling with was 20 years of my life . And the thought that I may put that in jeopardy was unthinkable . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Voiceover) When a friend mentioned the growing ATM business , the idea stuck with McKinney . Vending machines that spit out cash would become his dream investment . @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# I realized that it was a lot of possibilities @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ anywhere that you took it . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Voiceover) Forgiveness , integrity , kindness , respect . The lessons he cultivated in prison were now the lessons he 'd use in business and life . He began by forgiving Tony Rackauckas , the Orange County district attorney , who 'd put him away . @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# I understood that he was just doing his job . He was doing the job that he was given . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Off-camera) You 've even campaigned for him when he was running for district attorney . @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# Yes , I did . @!TONY-RACKAUCKAS-@1# We had an evening where we went out and knocked on a few doors together . And he would tell people that he was endorsing me and supporting me for district attorney . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Voiceover) And when he married , McKinney even invited the judge who 'd sentenced him to his wedding . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Off-camera) What 's more surprising ? That the judge went ? Or that DeWayne was able to forgive ? @!TONY-RACKAUCKAS-@1# You know , a California prison is not an easy place to be . And to become the person that @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @(Off-camera) How many people do you know who have been able to do that ? @!TONY-RACKAUCKAS-@1# I do n't know anyone else . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Voiceover) Less than three years out of prison , DeWayne was raking in a generous living owning and operating several ATM machines in South Central Los Angeles , all the while holding down his day job . But while on vacation in Hawaii , he 'd have another one of those life-changing revelations . @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# I was starting to truly understand the business , you know ? What it needed to make it profitable ? And I realized Hawaii was the perfect environment for that . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Voiceover) Perfect because of all those tourists , and at the time , very little competition . @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# So , I was able to come in and pretty much build my company very fast . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Voiceover) Today he owns 38 machines throughout the state . Making at times , he says , as much as $60,000 a month on ATM service fees alone . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Off-camera) Now , where does your company rank ... @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# Well ... @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Off-camera) @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ? @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# Well , I 'm probably the second largest company on the island . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Voiceover) But his success has come with a price . His marriage failed . He 's struggled with alcohol . And he 's been taken advantage of by some of the very people he 's tried to help . You help others get into this business . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Off-camera) You 're helping them become your competitor . Why do you do that ? @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# When you 're willing to give of yourself , when you 're willing to be there for someone else , it - works . You know , it comes back to you in many different forms . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Off-camera) Do you think forgiveness has been an important component to your success ? @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# It is . It is . It is. @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Off-camera) What do you think your greatest business asset is ? @!DEWAYNE-MCKINNEY-@# I guess it 's my heart . My willingness to give . @!MARY-FULGINITI-@1-# @(Voiceover) Giving and forgiving . The mark of a man who has let go of the past and , in turn , reaped rewards @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , I pinch myself because it seems so unusual . But at other times I 'm just like , ' Okay . This is where I 'm supposed to be . " @!GRAPHICS: REVENGE ? ' 
##4022455 NEAL @!CONAN , host : The steroids scandal in Major League Baseball made its way back to Capitol Hill today . Roger Clemens , one of the great pitchers of our time , appeared at the same witness table with his accuser and former trainer Brian McNamee . Both men were sworn in before the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform . qwq @ ( Soundbite-of-a-Hou Unidentified Man 1 : Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you receive - that you will give before this committee will be the truth , the whole truth and nothing but the truth . Unidentified Man 2 : I do . Unidentified Man 1 : Chair will note , for the record , that each of the witnesses answered in the affirmative . @!CONAN : In spite of that response , given their conflicting testimony , one of them likely committed perjury . Clemens argues he never used performance- enhancing drugs . McNamee says he injected Clemens with steroids and human growth hormone on Clemens orders . We 're going to listen to quite a bit of what both men @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ response to some questions . And if you followed this story , did anything you heard today change your mind ? 800-989-8255 . E-mail is talk@npr.org You can also weigh in on our blog at npr.org/blogofthenation . Tom Goldman is NPR sports correspondent . He spent the day at the hearings . And he joins us now from Capitol Hill . Hey , Tom . @!TOM-GOLDMAN : Hi , Neal . How are you ? @!CONAN : I 'm well , thank you . Set up this situation for us . This all stemmed from the publication of the Mitchell Report . I would guess that was late last year . @!GOLDMAN : Yeah . In December of 2007 , the Mitchell Report came out . And the one thing that stood out dramatically was that Brian McNamee , the former personal trainer to Roger Clemens , said he had injected several players with banned performance-enhancing drugs - human growth hormone and anabolic steroids . And the most prominent of those players was Roger Clemens . The two other guys who he said he injected : Chuck Knoblauch , formerly of @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ friend of Roger Clemens . Both acknowledged that McNamee was right . Clemens said he was not right and has vehemently denied it . And anyone who has watched TV or heard the radio over the past month has heard Roger Clemens certainly , vehemently denying it . He 's got a very flamboyant lawyer , who denies it at every stage . And so the committee wanted to come back , and , you know , they said their purpose was to figure out if there is a discrepancy in the Mitchell Report . They said that is the ultimate goal here . We want to find out if it 's a credible document , and that 's why they wanted to look at this . Of course , you know , what this boil down to was a lot of really nasty sordid stuff , and I think people had to be jarred every once in a while to remember this is about the Mitchell Report . @!CONAN : And here 's committee chairman Henry Waxman , Democrat from California , who began the hearing in his opening statement @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ for both those gentlemen as they appeared before his committee today . Representative HENRY WAXMAN ( Democrat , California ; Chairman ; House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform ) : They do n't disagree on a phone call or one meeting , they disagree on whether over a four - whether over a period of four years , Mr. McNamee repeatedly injected Mr. Clemens with steroids and human growth hormone . It 's impossible to believe that this is a simple misunderstanding . Someone is n't telling the truth . If Mr. McNamee is lying , then he has acted inexcusably and he has made Mr. Clemens an innocent victim . If Mr. Clemens is n't telling the truth , then he has acted shamefully and has smeared Mr. McNamee . I do n't think there 's anything in between . @!CONAN : And then , Chairman Waxman went on to say that , well , both men had arguments in their favor , but both men had involved themselves in contradictions , too . And he sought - said the purpose of the meeting today was to try to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , Roger Clemens defended his innocence . @!Mr-ROGER-CLEMENS-@ : If I 'm guilty of anything , it is of being too trusting of everyone , wanting to see the best in everyone , being too nice to everyone . If I 'm considered to be ignorant to that , then so be it . I 've chosen to live my life with a positive attitude , yet I 'm accused to being a criminal , and I 'm not supposed to be angry about that . If I keep my emotions in check , then I 'm accused of not caring . When I did speak out , I was accused of protesting too much , so I 'm guilty . When I kept quiet at the advice of my attorney until he could find out why in the world I was being accused of these things , I must have had something to hide so I 'm guilty . People who make false accusations should not be allowed to define another person 's life . @!CONAN : Then , Mr. McNamee followed . Brian McNamee , Roger Clemens former trainer @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ involving other ball players turned out to be accurate . @!Mr-BRIAN-McNAMEE-@ : Make no mistake , when I told Senator Mitchell that I injected Andy Pettitte with performance-enhancing drugs , I told the truth . Andy Pettitte , who I know to be honest and decent , has since confirmed this . And make no mistake , when I told Senator Mitchell that I injected Chuck Knoblauch with performance-enhancing drugs , I told the truth . Chuck Knoblauch has also confirmed this as well . And , make no mistake , when I told Senator Mitchell that I injected Roger Clemens with performance-enhancing drugs , I told the truth . I told the truth about steroids and human growth hormone . I injected those drugs into the body of Roger Clemens at his direction . Unfortunately , Roger has denied this and has led a full court attack on my credibility . And let me be clear , despite Roger Clemens statements to the contrary , I never injected Roger Clemens or anyone else with lidocaine or B-12 . I have no reason to lie and every reason not to . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I was never promised to any special treatment or consideration for fingering star players . I was never coerced to provide information against anyone . All that I was ever told to was to tell the truth to the best of my ability . And that is what I have done . @!CONAN : Tom Goldman , the - what Brian McNamee just said was , he 's backed up by Andy Pettitte , Roger Clemens close friend , and by former teammate on the New York Yankees , Chuck Knoblauch . They gave out statements as they were read by - they do not appear to testify today . But as their statements were rather - this was very damaging against Roger Clemens. @!GOLDMAN : Well , yeah , and certainly the one by Andy Pettitte . You know , Representative Elijah Cummings said , you know , he 's as confused as everyone . And he says we got these two guys on both sides . I 'm looking for something in the middle that will give me a sense of who 's telling the truth here . And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ was an affidavit signed by Andy Pettitte instead of testifying today , and also Andy Pettitte 's sworn deposition . And here 's what they said . First of all , they said Andy Pettitte is a longtime friend of Clemens . He 's a God-fearing man . He has unimpeachable character . And , you know , they asked Roger Clemens , do you think Andy Pettitte would lie . And Clemens said , no . No , he 's an honorable guy . So , then what Cummings did was he pointed out that Pettitte said in his deposition that in 1999 - either 1999 or 2000 , he had a conversation with Roger Clemens in which Clemens admitted using human growth hormone , banned human growth hormone . And then , he said they had another conversation in 2005 in which Pettitte came to Clemens and asked him what will you say in public if someone asked you about this . And Clemens said to Pettitte , according to Pettitte , that he would not - he would tell the truth , because he 's never used it @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ you told me that back in 1999 or 2000 that you did use it . And Roger said , no , I did n't . And Andy Pettitte said , oh . And so , when asked about that , Roger Clemens answers were n't too convincing . He said Andy Pettitte misremembered , he misspoke , he misheard . And that seemed , at least to Elijah Cummings , several other lawmakers , certainly to skeptical journalists that did n't seem to be too strong a statement . @!CONAN : On the same , on the other hand , Republican Congressman Dan Burton of Indiana pointed out that there had been several inconsistencies by the other witness , Brian McNamee . Representative DAN BURTON ( Republican , Indiana ) : Again , I 'm going to make sure I got this straight . Your friend , Roger Clemens , you allegedly gave him these shots . You kept the pads and the needles for five years and went on and kept working for him because he was your employer , and then you said you felt bad about proposing and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ talking to them ? @!Mr-McNAMEE : Yes , sir . @!Rep-BURTON : Gee-whiz , are you kidding me ? @!Mr-McNAMEE : No , sir . @!Rep-BURTON : My goodness . Mr. McNamee , I 'm going to read you a series of statements attributed to you regarding your involvement with steroids . I do n't have any dealings with steroids or amphetamines . I do n't buy it , sell it , condone it or recommend it . I do n't make money from it . It 's not part of my livelihood and not part of my business . Did you say that ? @!Mr-McNAMEE : Yup . @!Rep-BURTON : That 's a lie , right ? @!Mr-McNAMEE : Partial . @!Rep-BURTON : Partial ? @!Mr-McNAMEE : Partial lie . @!Rep-BURTON : McNamee pleads guilty to knowing the ins and outs of steroids but says I have no involvement as far as supplying it , getting it , selling it , telling them to use it . Jon Heyman , The sixth man : Clemens trainer denies link to Grimsley log - is that a lie ? @!Mr-McNAMEE : Yes @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ I 'm not going to read anymore of this . This is really disgusting . You 're here as a sworn witness . You 're here to tell the truth . You 're here under oath . And yet , we have lie after lie after lie after lie after lie , where you 've told this committee and the people of this country that Roger Clemens did things - I do n't know what to believe . I know one thing I do n't believe , and that 's you . @!CONAN : And Tom Goldman , neither one of these witnesses came off entirely credible today . @!GOLDMAN : Absolutely not . Let me just point out one thing Representative Mark Souder said during the hearing . And Congressman Henry Waxman , the chairman of this committee pointed that out , pointed what Souder said - pointed out what Souder said . Apparently , Souder has had some experience investigating illicit drug operations . And he said it 's common for people involved in this kind of stuff to tell little stories or lies or withhold information first . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ out . People involved in this kind of thing , certainly you could say Brian McNamee , who is involved in illegal activities with injecting , as he says , injecting players with banned drugs . Certainly , he 's the kind of guy . And he said it often today , he wanted to be protective of these people , so he did n't give all the information at once . So Representative Souder was pointing out , you know , what appears to be withholding information and lies , as Representative Burton said , not uncommon among people involved in these kinds of activities . @!NPR's-Tom-Goldman , # You 're listening to TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News . And let 's get some listeners on the line . Gary(ph) is calling us from Green Bay in Wisconsin . @!GARY-@1Caller@2 : Hi , Neal . Thanks for taking the call . I think after Mr. Bush and Mr. Clinton revalidated parsing words as an art form , and Roger - from what I heard - stated he did not take any human growth hormones or steroids , and @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ 's just parsing the words and difference between taking and injecting . @!CONAN : Did that come into it , do you think , Tom ? @!GOLDMAN : That was not raised today . But Gary raises an interesting issue . I mean , the congressmen say they 're going to go over every inch of the testimony . And , you know , before they decide on what action to take further . And they may look at that kind of thing . @!CONAN : When you say what action to take further , whether this case is going referred to the Justice Department to figure out who might get charged for perjury. @!GOLDMAN : Exactly , right . @!CONAN : All right . Gary , thanks very much . @!GARY : Thank you . @!CONAN : Bye-bye . Let 's see if we can go now to - this is Darryl(ph) , Darryl with us from Howell in Michigan . @!DARRYL-@1Caller@2 : Yeah . @!CONAN : Go ahead , please . @!DARRYL : Thanks for taking my call . @!CONAN : Yup . @!DARRYL : I watched the proceedings @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ discussion was around how kids take , you know , take all this in . I just hope that at the end of all , it 's just not forgotten that you do n't lie under oath and that that is his ( unintelligible ) that 's been , you know , see the consequences of lying , too . I hope - you know , what do you think about that ? @!CONAN : The kids - Tom , I think today was refreshingly different from previous hearings . We did n't hear a lot of stories about , you know , listening to baseball games on transistor radios on tractors or going with their grandfather to the polo grounds . But on the other hand , there was a lot of testimony about the effect of these hearings and the findings of the Mitchell Report in these hearings about their effect on kids . @!GOLDMAN : Yeah , absolutely . And probably the most interesting interview I did was with a couple , named the Moreros(ph) , who lost a son in 2004 . He committed suicide and they @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ withdraw from steroids very quickly , and it caused all kinds of emotional problems , they say . And they were probably the only two people in that hearing reacting really viscerally and reacting emotionally , while , you know , you had media people kind of rolling their eyes at different times , and politicians grandstanding at times . These people were reacting from the gut , and their message was it does have an impact . And for all the people out there who say , you know , this does n't really matter , let 's get on with spring training - it does matter , because it is affecting children . And their son , they said before he committed suicide , admitted , hey , I 'm going to drugs because , you know , it worked for Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds , two guys who have been associated with banned performance- enhancing drugs . Of course , Barry Bonds has denied it . Both have denied it . @!CONAN : Darryl , thanks very much . Let 's go now to Nicole(ph) , Nicole @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Hi . As a young person and a sports fan , I 'm just so frustrated . While I understand that it started as an issue and the kids are following these examples , we 're in the midst of war . We 're in the midst of one of the most exciting elections in decades , foreign policy shambles . Why is Congress focusing on baseball as opposed to any one of the number of things that they could help solve for our country or the world ? Or , maybe hold this administration accountable for something as opposed to grilling Roger Clemens and his - like , there 's so much more they could be focusing on . Why are we paying so much attention to this ? @!CONAN : Tom Goldman , a cynic might point out there were an awful lot of television cameras pointed at congressmen during an election year . @!GOLDMAN : Certainly were , and you ca n't negate that whole idea . And probably , that was part of it . You know , one congressman did point out , and he anticipated @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ look , you know , for the other - you know , we did this for five hours a day . The rest of the time , we are dealing with those kinds of issues that Nicole was talking about and probably are more important . I 've had this discussion in my own head : Why is this important other than it 's my job to cover it ? There are big issues you 're dealing with here . You know , this striking thing with - that will , you know , translate down to kids , of lying . And you get into the issues of cheating and following the rules and not taking short cuts . If you 're an athlete , you could argue that those are important issues to bring up . And , you know , Congress , last time they brought this up with baseball , it forced baseball to get tougher with its performance-enhancing drug testing and program . They were dragged , kicking and screaming into it . Who knows what this may do . It will forward the dialogue , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ to have on performance-enhancing drugs , whether it 's in sports or in society , because it 's rampant in society . @!CONAN : Nicole , thanks very much for the call . And Tom Goldman , I guess we should also point out that the Barry Bonds trial for perjury , alleged perjury , that 's still pending . And at the same time , you 've got - this story is not going away . And in another part of Capitol Hill , you had Senator Arlen Specter , talking with the football league commissioner about Spygate , and what the coach or the Patriots may have done or not done . So Congress and politics and sports and courtrooms , pitchers and catchers report later this week , Tom . @!GOLDMAN : No sighting of David Stern in the NBA , though . @!CONAN : Tom Goldman , NPR sports correspondent , with us from Capitol Hill . Thank you very much . @!GOLDMAN : You 're welcome . @!CONAN : This is TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News . I 'm Neal Conan in Washington . @ 
##4022476 @!COLIN-POWELL-@1FMR# I think that Mr. Obama has done an incredible job in coming to where he is now on the Democratic side of this campaign . And I think he 's been an exciting person on the political stage . He has energized a lot of people in America . He has energized a lot of people around the world . And so I think he is worth listening to and seeing what he stands for . There are some positions he has that I would n't support . But that 's the case with every candidate that 's out there . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Colin Powell says he 's still not ready to make up his mind . He may vote for a Democrat . He may vote for a Republican . He may vote for an independent . No such equivocation on our roundtable . I am joined , as always , by George Will , Sam Donaldson , Donna Brazile and welcome to Byron York of " The National Review . " And George , as we begin , let me show you where the Democratic @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ now . Who 's ahead ? @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Voiceover) Hillary Clinton has won the most votes . Look at that , a little over 9 million to a little over 8. 5 million for Barack Obama . But Barack Obama has won the most states . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Voiceover) 18 states for Obama to 10 for Clinton . New Mexico still hanging out there from Tuesday . They have n't counted the votes up yet . When you look at delegates , it gets even more interesting . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Voiceover) Barack Obama has won more delegates in the primaries and caucuses , 951-904 . Hillary Clinton ahead in the Super delegates , 214-144 , which gives her a very slim lead of 23 delegates , according to ABC right now , right around 1% . So who 's ahead ? @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Two things , the ABC map did not include Florida as a Clinton victory which Mr O'Malley in your interview with him twice stressed was a Clinton victory . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Michigan too . @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Setting the stage - Michigan - setting the stage for a donnybrook in Denver if @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ only because of the Super Delegates . Won 796 of them ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) And the popular vote . She 's won more voters . @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) I do not - and she , Miss Brazile , has said if the Super Delegates decide this against and contrary to what the people have decided , she will quit the Democratic Party . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) I wanted to get to that later . But since you brought it up right now , let 's get to it right now . You heard Governor O'Malley say he does n't think it 's going to come to that . Governor Kaine said he does n't think it 's gon na come to that . But it really could come to that . And you say , well , if the Super Delegates go in the opposite direction of the popular vote , you 're going to quit the party . But the Clinton folks do point out that 's what Super Delegates were designed to do . They were supposed to be independent voices . @!DONNA-BRAZILE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) George , my fear is that the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ key states to come will decide . I think that there 's time . 1,133 delegates outstanding as of last night . There 's still time for the pledged delegates to somehow or another sort this out so Super Delegates will not have to make this decision . Look , we do n't wear capes . We ca n't hear the sound of a pin drop miles away . We do n't drive bat mobiles . And no one wants to see us in spandex . We should represent the will of the voters of this country and we should not stop this contest prematurely in order to rush the decision . Now , I have to say this . I am entertaining chocolate and flowers for Valentine 's Day . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) But nothing more than chocolate and flowers . @!SAM-DONALDSON-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Can I just ask , Donna , how are you going to measure the will of the voters of this country ? What if , god forbid , from perhaps the standpoint of Senator Obama , we come at the end of the delegate process in the states @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , slightly ahead in delegates ? Are you going to say , okay , we all have to get behind Senator Clinton ? I doubt it . I doubt it . Obama mania is just too strong . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) But turn it around a second . What is even more likely and I want to bring Byron York in on this as well . Is I 've seen these spreadsheets that the campaigns have done . One done by the Obama campaign that shows if they win these contests coming up in February , which they 're expected to do , they lose Texas and Ohio and Pennsylvania where Hillary Clinton is currently ahead . They go into June , and there is 25 or 30 votes separating the two candidates with Obama ahead . But Super Delegates could put her over the top . And I guess I want to ask you , Byron , is that basically the perfect dream for Republicans right now ? That Hillary Clinton wins a disputed primary in the convention system ? @!BYRON-YORK-@1 " NATI# Right . You have a Florida recount at @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ great for Republicans . And Barack Obama , if it 's essentially tied or back Obama is slightly ahead and he does n't get the nomination , oh , we 've had all this talk about lack of Republican enthusiasm for a Republican candidate . If you have lack of Democratic enthusiasm for that Democratic candidate , you turn what is a Democratic year by all measurements into an even match . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) And , George , one of the things we 've seen is that Obama seems to get these waves . We thought it was coming before New Hampshire . It appeared that perhaps it was coming before Super Tuesday . And he had a good night , no question about that . But something seems to happen just at the last moment . And voters are actually making up their minds on election days , on these big days so far , go back to Clinton . @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) And this is where something is ominous for Obama in Texas and Ohio . In Texas in 2004 , 25% , 1 in 4 , of the voters @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Hispanic vote in California . Super Tuesday seems like ancient history and it was last Tuesday . She won the Hispanic vote in California by 40 points . In Ohio , in 2004 , only 10% of the Ohio Democratic voters in that primary had incomes over $100,000 a year . That 's Obama country is the more affluent Democrats . The field is tilted against him demographically. @!SAM-DONALDSON-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Yeah . And also , the primaries are difficult for him . He 's won some , no question about it . He wins the caucuses where smaller numbers usually and the party faithful come out . But in primaries , California being the big enchilada this time , she won the youth vote . Hispanic Americans , yes . He did well with whites , but not well enough . And she won women , and she won us older people . So , I mean , when you get to Ohio - forget Texas - she may do well because - and Pennsylvania . I think she may have the advantage . And that 's why I say at @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ ahead and the Super Delegates are already being set up by the Obama camp , you heard him just a few moments ago , the will of the people , how do they go against her ? I do n't know . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) And , Donna , had Senator Obama not won that squeaker in Missouri on Tuesday night , won by about 1% of the vote there , completely different outcome , right ? @!DONNA-BRAZILE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Oh , no question about it . Look , Obama had a super weekend , but this is still a very evenly matched race between two historic candidates . This is an unconventional year , which is the reason why I think Super Delegates should just stand back , hold , do n't hit the panic button . Hillary Clinton is - George and Sam , they 're both right . Hillary Clinton has built-in institutional advantages at this point going forward . But Senator Obama has tapped into something that we have never seen on the Democratic side and I would hasten to say , even on the Republican side . It @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ capture seniors , Hispanics , women . That will give him an even chance of winning this nomination . But I still give this nomination to Hillary Clinton not because of the Super delegates but because she has institutional strength within the party . @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) But the emergence of McCain should be an advantage to Obama . Because they now know who they 're running against . They 're running against the Republican who does best with independents . Hillary Clinton lost the independents to Obama in New York . She lost them in Missouri . She lost them in New Jersey , next door to New York . So if they 're looking for the candidate to run against McCain , they 've found it . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) But how real is this appeal ? Let me ask you , Byron York , of Barack Obama to Republicans and independents . He 's doing well with independents and Republicans who decide they want to vote in a Democratic primary . But you look at some of the states he won on Tuesday night , Idaho , North Dakota . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ talking point . Those states are not going Democrat in November . @!BYRON-YORK-@1 " NATI# That 's right . That 's the flip side of the argument going on in the Republican camp right now . But I mean he really did cream her in these races yesterday . There 's no doubt about it - it was just , you know , 2-1 , 3-1 . And if he continues to win big races , he kind of looks like a winner at that point . And I think there 's going to be great dissatisfaction with a system where one guy seems to win a lot and yet they seem to be kind of equal in delegates . And it seems terribly unfair . And that 's where you get to the revolution . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Sam how do you explain - and Donna talked about Hillary Clinton ' s strength . How do you explain Obama ' s weakness among working class voters , especially working class women ? @!SAM-DONALDSON-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Very difficult to understand . But clearly , all of our demographics show that he appeals to @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ affluent . I was at a dinner party last night here in Washington . We were drinking chardonnay . And overwhelming - I think there were mostly Democrats there , I 'm not certain . Overwhelming for Obama . But the flip side is , why are n't working people following him the same way ? I think there are other strains . And there are other forces at work there . From the standpoint of why they do n't like Mr Obama. @!DONNA-BRAZILE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Because the economy is the top issue . And many Democrats remember fondly the Clinton/Gore years . And as a result of that , they look to Hillary Clinton as someone who can deliver on jobs , on health care and some of the basic kitchen table issues . And she 's connecting with women in a way that I think will be very tough for Obama to beat her down the road , unless he can make that same appeal to women on these issues . @!SAM-DONALDSON-@1-A# @(Off-camera) And Donna , I think race may be part of it . Hate to say it . @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ reason . @!DONNA-BRAZILE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) There 's racial division but not racial polarization because at the end of the day blacks and whites will look at the same thing . @!SAM-DONALDSON-@1-A# @(Off-camera) I 'm talking about the lower - the people who are not for her at the moment on those socioeconomic groups , I think race may be part of it . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) So how does Barack Obama , Donna , then tie that speech - these speeches that he 's giving every victory night , tie it back to working people , to their concerns ? I keep hearing that that is sort of the big thing missing in his campaign . @!DONNA-BRAZILE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) I think that 's where both emotion and his keen intellect will come into play . Obama understands , I think rightly , that voters want to know how will you change our lives . Not how will you just change the country , change the dynamics in Washington , DC , but how will you personally help me ? And I think Obama needs to just personalize it a little bit more . And @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) And George , you see the Clintons are recalibrating . We saw President Clinton say that now he can go out and advocate for his wife , but he ca n't defend her . @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) With metronomic regularity because it is a metabolic urge . The man simply can not tell the truth . He was down in Louisiana yesterday , I believe it was , and he said , Senator Obama says that the ' 90s were n't - were about as good as the current decade we 're in . Obama never said anything remote like that . @!SAM-DONALDSON-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Well , but it works you see . @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) It does n't work . That 's the point . Bill Clinton as a news bulletin to a lot of people is a terrible politician . @!SAM-DONALDSON-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Oh , come on ... @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) He came into power in ' 92 , left in 2000 . There were fewer Democratic Senators , members of Congress , state legislatures , governors , when 's the ... @!SAM-DONALDSON-@1-A# @(Off-camera) More politicians like him and the Republican Party @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ , what I love and let me just talk about the little clip you showed of former President Clinton , saying , I discovered I ca n't defend my wife like other people because I 'm former president . How does it defend her that pointing out that Jesse Jackson won the South Carolina primary twice ? @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) I think that is a comment he 'd like to take back . @!SAM-DONALDSON-@1-A# @(Off-camera) That 's not in defense of his wife . @!BYRON-YORK-@1 " NATI# We have not talked about it but the Clintons are going to come back into this more because of this $5 million loan that she made to her campaign . People are going to ask , where did this money come from ? And it has opened up her own finances and his finances . Because he has made an enormous amount of money as a ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) I think it could . @!BYRON-YORK-@1 " NATI# ... ex-president . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) But I think it could certainly do that if she is the nominee . But in the short term , in the short @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ claim they raised $10 million since Super Tuesday after announcing that loan so it does n't look like as if they 're gon na need to lend themselves ... @!BYRON-YORK-@1 " NATI# But Obama has demanded that , you know , or asked ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) He 's asked for it absolutely . @!BYRON-YORK-@1 " NATI# ... that she release her tax returns saying that he 's released his . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) And says she 'll do it in the General Election . I do n't think it 's gon na come out before the primaries . Let 's turn to the Republican side now , take a look at where the Republican race stands . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Voiceover) Right now on the delegate count , John McCain way ahead , 712 delegates to 282 . Mitt Romney still hanging in there in second place . Mike Huckabee closing in on him at 234 . And Ron Paul down at 14. @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) George , mathematically impossible for Mike Huckabee to catch up at this point . We just saw it again this morning . John McCain still has , despite your @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ with conservatives . @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) He does . And he will for a while . But to govern is to choose . And you always choose among imperfect alternatives . And the conservatives at the end of the day are going to choose to support the Republican nominee . The question is the intensity . Now , if Huckabee should carry Texas , he can continue to pile up delegates . He 'll continue to generate headlines with the word trounce in it . " The Washington Post " says , Huckabee trounces McCain in Kansas . I do n't think that 's the way to win the heart of John McCain if he 's trying to become vice president . If he thinks he can force John McCain 's hand , he does not know John McCain. @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) But Byron , how does John McCain win the hearts of conservatives ? @!BYRON-YORK-@1 " NATI# It 's very hard . After Romney pulled out at the CPAC speech , a group of conservatives who supported Romney , included David Keane who organized CPAC , Ralph Reed , Laura Ingraham , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Romney was there for a little while , said thank you very much . After he left , they all began to discuss what McCain ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) They want him to hold on to his delegates as well . @!BYRON-YORK-@1 " NATI# They did , for more leverage against McCain . But the most important thing to them , as it came out , was the vice presidential choice . That it has to be a choice that when they hear the name , they say , yeah , that 's one of us . But they realize - they 're all going to vote for John McCain . They 're not these people who are going to say , oh , I 'll vote for Hillary if it 's McCain . They 're gon na vote for John McCain but they can deny him their enthusiasm . And they say , you know , without us , the only phone calls that 'll be made for John McCain are by the people he pays to make phone calls for him . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) And Mike Huckabee does n't fit @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ You know , I went to Huckabee 's headquarters the night before the Des Moines , Iowa , caucuses . And it was part phone bank and part day care center . I mean there were all these families there , and the parents were making the phone calls and the kids were playing . And those were the kind of volunteer energy that you saw in Iowa and you saw it in Kansas too . And those are the type of people that Karl Rove and George Bush discovered and helped him win in 2004. @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Wait , so you 're saying that Mike Huckabee would satisfy these conservatives ? @!BYRON-YORK-@1 " NATI# He satisfies the evangelical branch , of course . But , no , he angers the economic conservatives and the foreign policy conservatives big time . @!SAM-DONALDSON-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Well , people say John McCain needs the intensity . Both of you have . And you 're exactly right . In ' 04 , the Democrats turned out in Cleveland , 57,000 more votes for John Kerry than they did for Al Gore . They lost the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ Dobson says he 'll stay home . Ann Coulter says she 'll vote for Hillary Clinton . Now , I think Ann Coulter 's just trying to sell her books and all that - I think on her next book she will appear nude on the cover , that 's what she 's about . But I do agree these conservatives who demand 1,000% perfection - Tom DeLay said on your program just a few moments ago , he has to answer certain questions . If John McCain answers the questions that would satisfy Tom DeLay , he loses a lot of the independents , it seems to me. @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Byron York brought up the vice presidential choice . John McCain was actually asked about that this week . And he denied you need any kind of geographic balance . And he said Clinton and Gore proved that was n't necessary , but he went on to say this . @!SENATOR-JOHN-MCCAI# The fundamental principle behind any selection of a running mate would be whether that person is fully prepared to take over and shares your values , your principles , @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ the first and only real criteria . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) George , values , principles , philosophies and priorities . I look at that . And I 'm just gon na throw this name out there to get you to react . And I think General David Petraeus . The architect of the surge . A military hero . Unconventional choice . But actually going for synergy rather than balancing . @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Well , what does Mr Petraeus think about marginal tax rates and abortion and stem cell research and all this . This is politics . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Coming back to Byron 's point . @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Politics is a business . He 's not in the business . And I think that would be highly risky because you would be saying " we 're going to run this election straight ahead not just on national security but on Iraq . " @!SAM-DONALDSON-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Well , but George , what if we 're in a deep recession next November ? These two war heroes against the Democrats who say they have a plan to cure the economy ? I do @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ already proven that he does n't know anything about the economy . He went as far as to say that he 's reading Alan Greenspan 's book . That 's a problem . @!BYRON-YORK-@1 " NATI# He needs to - McCain needs balance . @!SAM-DONALDSON-@1-A# @(Off-camera) I 'd like to defend the former guru of the Fed . @!BYRON-YORK-@1 " NATI# McCain needs balance in other ways . He needs somebody who is at least 20 years younger than he is . He 's going to be 72 years old on inauguration day . Somebody like ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) But that 's really reaching down . @!BYRON-YORK-@1 " NATI# Somebody like Mark Sanford who is the governor of South Carolina , is 47 years old , a big conservative . That would be an obvious choice . He needs somebody , as I was saying before , who conservatives recognize immediately as one of them . And it would n't hurt ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) Who else fits that bill ? @!BYRON-YORK-@1 " NATI# Well , Tim Pawlenty might work as well ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) The governor of Minnesota . @!BYRON-YORK-@1 " @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ And they need - somebody with executive experience would n't hurt . @!DONNA-BRAZILE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Let me mention Jeb Bush . @!BYRON-YORK-@1 " NATI# Voters like executive experience . @!DONNA-BRAZILE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) Let me mentioned Jeb Bush . @!BYRON-YORK-@1 " NATI# That 's not gon na happen . @!DONNA-BRAZILE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) They also need ... @!BYRON-YORK-@1 " NATI# No more Bushes for the Republicans . @!DONNA-BRAZILE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) They also need Hispanics . They need someone who can go out there and capture Florida , capture Colorado , Nevada , and I do n't believe that John McCain can just afford to just get any Republican , any conservative , but he needs to get someone that can appeal to some of the people who left the Republican Party . @!BYRON-YORK-@1 " NATI# You want another Bush on the ticket ? @!DONNA-BRAZILE-@1-A# @(Off-camera) No ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) George , let 's keep it going . @!GEORGE-WILL-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Byron mentioned Tim Pawlenty , you have to think 270 electoral votes . The winner of the Mississippi Valley usually wins the presidency . Minnesota , of which Pawlenty is governor , is the only state to vote @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ course , for Mondale in ' 84 . So Pawlenty will be on anyone 's short list . @!SAM-DONALDSON-@1-A# @(Off-camera) By the way , does John McCain want George W Bush to campaign for him ? At the moment , I read in the newspapers they want the president 's support for the conservatives . But in the fall , I think not . @!BYRON-YORK-@1 " NATI# Well in selected spots . @!SAM-DONALDSON-@1-A# @(Off-camera) In selected spots . @!BYRON-YORK-@1 " NATI# Bush 's has a 32% approval rating and you go for those 32%. @!SAM-DONALDSON-@1-A# @(Off-camera) With television today and ... @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Off-camera) And get him to raise money and that 's what the president has been doing . We 're out of time for today . Sam , Byron , Donna , George , thank you , all , very much . The roundtable 's going to continue in the green room . @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Voiceover) You can join in later on ABCNews.com. @!GEORGE-STEPHANOPOU# @(Voiceover) And get the latest political news and analysis there every day from the note . Coming up here , " The Sunday Funnies . " COMMERCIAL @ @ 
##4022554 @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) All right . Welcome back . Here we are in Central Park . The one and only Jennifer Lopez , the one and only Lucy Danziger , now teamed up with ' Self " magazine . You are the most inspiring woman ... @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# Oh , that 's right . @!LUCY-DANZIGER-@1'S# Of 2008 , she 's busy . @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# For ' Self " magazine . @!LUCY-DANZIGER-@1'S# You know , we , we are really admiring of the fact that she had twins , this mega star career , and now she 's doing a triathlon to raise money for charity . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) And the key there , six months , how are the babies , Emme and Max ? @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# They 're great , they 're great , they 're amazing . I hated leaving them this morning , but . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) I apologize for that . @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# No , no , not at all . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Are they sleeping ? @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# They 're sleeping through the night . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Really ? @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# Yes . @GRAPHICS @GRAPHICS @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Phenomenal . If @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ is their schedule even close to being the same ? @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# Yes . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Really ? @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# They go to bed around 9:00 , 9:30 , and they get up around 6:30 , 7:00. @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) That is impressive . @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# It 's awesome . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Also , Lopez and her husband Marc Anthony , doing it themselves , lack of infrastructure in the household . @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# Yes , we actually just tried somebody out last week when Lucy was there , it was like her first day because I 'm gon na be going back to work to do a film later in the year . So I 'm trying to find somebody . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) But , it 's amazing in this day and age . @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# But , we 've been doing it by ourselves and we love it . It 's been awesome . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) That 's great , and it 's so rare you hear about that . Now , so , you 're doing the most difficult thing in the world , which is parenting twins . @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# Yeah . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ into shape , how does this idea come up ? @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# Well , it actually came up when I was about eight months pregnant and I was , you know , beached on the , like a whale . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Voiceover) You looked beautiful , nothing as beautiful as a pregnant woman . @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# And I was watching TV and I saw a triathlon , and I just said , you know what , I think I can do that . That would be great for me to do . Maybe I 'll do it this year . And of course everybody told me I was crazy . But , it was funny because after I had the baby and I did the shoot for " Self , " I met Lucy , and she came down to the shoot , and she was like , are you really going to do a triathlon . I 'm like , you know , I 'm really , really do want to do it , and she 's like , I do them . I was like , you do ? I was @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ can really raise a lot of money and do something like really great . And , that 's what it turned out to be . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) The triathlon is September 14th in Malibu. @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# Yes . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) It is for charity ? @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# It is , it is , for The Children 's Hospital of Los Angeles , which I 've worked with for many years . And we 're going to raise it through ' Self " selfmagazine.com , there 's jenniferlopez.com . You can donate , we 're very excited about it . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) So , this is great , how are you getting ready for this ? @!LUCY-DANZIGER-@1'S# Well , one of the things I was going to say , is if you go to a spin class or you 're a runner , and you 're a woman out there and you 're curious about it , you can actually follow Jennifer 's training diary online at self.com , and learn . It 's not that much more to add swimming or add that other sport and you rotate these things and get a @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# The swimming , the swimming is a killer . I 'm not going to lie . I 'm not a natural swimmer . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Foreign to you ? @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# Very foreign in the water . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) You were on a track team , so you know that you 're a dancer and a good athlete . @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# Yes . @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# Yes , I 'm a good athlete . You know , I feel like , you know , my stamina , I can get it up there with some , if I work really hard , but the swimming , swimming is a killer . @!LUCY-DANZIGER-@1'S# She 's a great athlete . @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# Phelps has nothing to worry about with me. @!LUCY-DANZIGER-@1'S# Okay , I have to really struggle to keep up with this one on wheels . But , I will say , what I tell people about swimming , I 'm not a natural , get in the pool , five minutes later you can tell yourself , you can get out if you 're not having fun after five minutes . Generally , you start @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ well , you relax and you do n't want to get out after five minutes . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Now you , you know that , you 've had your body at level condition , most people do n't for most of your life . But , they 're home , they 're watching this , maybe Jennifer says I should try , maybe I should try . What 's your advice to them so far in this process ? What you need to know at home if you 're thinking of doing this . @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# Okay . If you 're thinking , you got to start slow . You got to start slow and give yourself time . You know , this is not something that is natural to me but it 's something that I feel is a challenge . I 'm always into challenging myself and seeing what I can do . You just , you have to start little by little . Start little by little , and then you just , you just work up to it . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Danziger 's a little intimidating , is @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @(Off-camera) She 's a little jacked up . @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# ... she 's woman of the year , okay . Inspiring woman of the year . @!LUCY-DANZIGER-@1'S# No , no , no I started this four years ago , and I decided to see if I could get a little faster , and I lost some weight . The thing about being a triathlete , is when you do these cross-training things , you can eat whatever you want and you get thin . @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# Very hungry . @!LUCY-DANZIGER-@1'S# It 's pretty great . So , the biking , I was going to say , you know , you go , you get a nice bike and you get it fit . Because I used to get aches and pains when I was biking. @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# That 's true . @!LUCY-DANZIGER-@1'S# If they make the handlebars right and the seat right and the pedals right , you can get power out of the whole stroke . And instead of being like a nine-year-old going up and down and up and down , you get power out of the whole stroke pedal and you @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ It 's fun . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Are you having fun so far ? @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# You know what , I am having , it 's really tiring , you know what I mean . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) It sounds hard . @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# You know , I like spending a lot of time with the babies and I have , you know , some work that I 'm doing . So , I have a limited amount of time that I can actually train . So I try to really maximize that . But I 'm having fun with that , I have to say , it 's really challenging . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Jennifer Lopez , are you nervous that you wo n't be able to finish ? @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# Yes . @!LUCY-DANZIGER-@1 " S# No , she 's great , she 's going to do well . @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# Yes , if I have to crawl across that finish line , I am going to crawl across that finish line . @!LUCY-DANZIGER-@1 " S# She 's going to do it for charity if for nothing else . @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# That 's right . It 's for @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# I keep telling myself that when I am , when I 'm training , I 'm like this is for charity . Your kids are going to know about this . Do n't embarrass the family . Really , really get it done , Lopez , get it done . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) If they see you on the side like this , you got ta go . @!LUCY-DANZIGER-@1'S# If you have a goal , you can reach that finish line . That 's the thing . Having a goal really helps . We try to help women have a body goal . Yours is so inspiring because women will relate to the fact you 've never done this before . So it 's really fun . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Especially coming off pregnancy . I remember learning with my wife , the doctor said a year out , a year back in . You 're six months out . @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# It 's true , it 's true . I 'm six months out ... @!LUCY-DANZIGER-@1 " S# Amazing . @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# And it is challenging . I 'm not gon na @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ out there and when I 'm done after that hour , hour and a half a day , or whatever it takes , an hour and 15 minutes . I feel great . I have to say , I feel great . I have more energy . You know , I 'm proud of myself , you know . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Is Papa Anthony supportive ? @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# He 's very supportive . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Voiceover) ' Cause you 're handing off two to him , you 're saying , I 've got to go jog , and he 's getting this ... @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# Remember , he put together , he put together ... @!LUCY-DANZIGER-@1 " S# He 's great . @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# No , no ... @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Voiceover) There you go , I got ta go jog , and he 's like whoa . @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# No , no , he loves it . And he set up like a whole , and she knows this because she came to the house . He set up a whole little area for me to run with the treadmill , and he put together the computer @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ n't have to go out all the time . And he knows I hate leaving the babies . And he 's like , I got you a little computer thing , so I 'm just there going up the hills . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Anything to keep you around the kids . @!LUCY-DANZIGER-@1 " S# Yeah , he 's very supportive . @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# You know what ? It was probably a little self-serving . He 's great . @!LUCY-DANZIGER-@1 " S# No , he 's very supportive , and he 's gon na be there cheering . - The great thing about these guys is they have this normal life and yet she 's training for a triathlon and she 's a superstar . So I 'm @(inaudible) . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) This is all great . That 's why you 're the most inspiring woman for " Self " magazine . Congratulations to you . @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# Thank you so much . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Good luck . September 14th . That 's the big day for Lopez . We 'll find out where she is on that day . She better be in @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ @ . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) Always a pleasure . @!LUCY-DANZIGER-@1 " S# Watch her train online at self.com . You 're gon na be doing it , you 're gon na be blogging it . @!JENNIFER-LOPEZ-@1M# We 're blogging it all the time . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Voiceover) I 'm inspired . I may have to go do a little bit here . @!CHRIS-CUOMO-@1-ABC# @(Off-camera) We 'll be right back . Monty Hall . COMMERCIAL BREAK ' 